Given that Shylock defends himself by pointing that he too is human, just like his persecutors, I think it's a very appropriate and thematic comparison for fantasy. The point is that tieflings, and especially tiefling PCs, are not innately evil, whatever their backstory happens to be. Any persecution of tieflings thus says more about the persecutors than the tieflings themselves.
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Tieflings
- Thread starter Ebon Shar
- Start date
response about Real world racial stuff removed - PS
Regardless of the individual ethical stance of any given Tiefling, they only exist through a great evil. That's what I didn't like about the comparison.
Otherwise, I'd agree with the concept, Hong.
Regardless of the individual ethical stance of any given Tiefling, they only exist through a great evil. That's what I didn't like about the comparison.
Otherwise, I'd agree with the concept, Hong.
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Haffrung Helleyes
First Post
tiefling
OK, it's time now for you all to listen while I rant about my pet peeve!
I really really hate the D&D practice of creating names for creatures by glomming on a verb onto the end of a noun and making another noun out of it.
Example.
Warforged
Dragonborn
I also hate the practice (popularized by one Monte Cook) of just deciding that an adjective sounds good and bastardizing it into a noun.
Example:
Unfettered
I really want to send the Grammar Police over to WoTC and make some arrests!
Compared to all these other names, Tiefling sounds just fine. Though, I think they could have done better, unless they really wanted to emphasise the whole 'Evil like Nazi Germany' thing.
OK, I'm done with my bitching for now.
Ken
OK, it's time now for you all to listen while I rant about my pet peeve!
I really really hate the D&D practice of creating names for creatures by glomming on a verb onto the end of a noun and making another noun out of it.
Example.
Warforged
Dragonborn
I also hate the practice (popularized by one Monte Cook) of just deciding that an adjective sounds good and bastardizing it into a noun.
Example:
Unfettered
I really want to send the Grammar Police over to WoTC and make some arrests!
Compared to all these other names, Tiefling sounds just fine. Though, I think they could have done better, unless they really wanted to emphasise the whole 'Evil like Nazi Germany' thing.
OK, I'm done with my bitching for now.
Ken
I don't think his comment was actually meant in the spirit of hating Jews -- all Borat jokes aside.VannATLC said:
What he means (I assume) is that Tieflings are likely to end up in the same kinds of jobs that Jews did for many of the same social reasons. You have a human subculture that is markedly different from the dominant culture which is rootless and without a home. They look different (as a matter of physiology instead of due to religious dress codes) and people cannot really marry out of the community easily (due to the curse instead of religious reasons; a much more stark problem for Tieflings than for Jews who could convert).
As a result, they cannot blend in fully a society and must take up the marginal and yet useful jobs that people "in good standing" would never take -- for example, practicing usury (i.e. banking) -- just to find a way to fit in. This is especially true if the community resents members of the marginalized group holding the "good" jobs. These jobs, while disliked, are essential to a community and provide a reason for a community to tolerate their presence (even while reviling them for the sort of work they do).
In other words, the same European social pressures that drove real world Jews into being bankers (for which they were reviled) would probably apply to Tieflings. Tieflings will always be marked as separate. They have no homeland of their own. They will need a way to ingratiate themselves with a larger, disdainful human populace much like Jews had to do in Christian Europe.
That the people in question in his campaign setting are demon-touched was probably not meant to actually be an insult to the Jews. It's more of a coincidence resulting from Tieflings being perpetually attached to human cultures and yet always outsiders. (I pointed out the potentially insulting connection more as a joke than anything else; I didn't mean to open up a flood of accusations of anti-Semitism towards the original poster.)
In other words, I don't think the poster was actually intending to say anything like Jews == demonspawn. I think he was just finding a natural fit for Tieflings in the marginal, unwanted jobs.
The problem with that comparison is that medieval european jews only ended up as money lenders because the doctrine of the catholic church at the time prevented christians (i.e. pretty much everyone in western/central Europe) from charging interest on loans. It's not like "downtrodden outsiders" and "money lenders" are two concepts that naturally go hand-in-hand. It happened only in that particular time, in that particular place, due to ancient Christian theology.
I mean, if you're playing in an actual historically-accurate medieval Europen setting, that's one thing, but church policy on usury isn't something that comes up in most D&D games. What about eating meat on Fridays? Adventuring on Sundays? The Catholic Church's laws don't make a great deal of sense in your typical D&D world, where the accumulated history that led to those beliefs does not exist.
I mean, if you're playing in an actual historically-accurate medieval Europen setting, that's one thing, but church policy on usury isn't something that comes up in most D&D games. What about eating meat on Fridays? Adventuring on Sundays? The Catholic Church's laws don't make a great deal of sense in your typical D&D world, where the accumulated history that led to those beliefs does not exist.
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Herobizkit
Adventurer
Wooo Draenei FTW!
I'm sure the resemblance of Tieflings to Draenei, and WotC's desire to make them core, is not accidental.
Still, I like Cambion/Alu-Demon (yeah, I said Demon - boo on political correctness) or Turathii much better than "Tiefling".
I'm sure the resemblance of Tieflings to Draenei, and WotC's desire to make them core, is not accidental.
Still, I like Cambion/Alu-Demon (yeah, I said Demon - boo on political correctness) or Turathii much better than "Tiefling".
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
Ebon Shar said:
It's correct on the German words, and it works for me on the word association as well. After all, hell is often envisioned as being some sort of pit beneath the earth, and so seeing tieflings as "beings from the depths" certainly makes sense.
I can live with the name. And the concept is OK, if you want easy and accessible angst in your campaign. What bugs me is the disconnect between the fluff and the artwork.
I mean, in R&C they are described as having "small horns and thin tails", but looking at the artwork, I see ginormous, floppy tails and horns that no billy-goat would be ashamed to have on it's head. If the devil traits were kind of subtle, like infernal stigmata, it would be cool. As they come across in the artwork, they are somewhere between monstrous and silly.
If I were a tiefling living in a city environment (as they are described as often doing), all my anguish and issues wouldn't stem from my darkly mysterious origins, but from the people stepping on my tail all the friggin' time!!!
I mean, in R&C they are described as having "small horns and thin tails", but looking at the artwork, I see ginormous, floppy tails and horns that no billy-goat would be ashamed to have on it's head. If the devil traits were kind of subtle, like infernal stigmata, it would be cool. As they come across in the artwork, they are somewhere between monstrous and silly.
If I were a tiefling living in a city environment (as they are described as often doing), all my anguish and issues wouldn't stem from my darkly mysterious origins, but from the people stepping on my tail all the friggin' time!!!
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