Tomb of Horrors - example of many, or one of a kind?

[Doug McCrae]

Self-sacrificing deeds such as holding the battle line while the other characters retreat, acting as point man (opening all doors and being the first to investigate anything), and offering oneself prisoner if the rest of the party is let free usually result in a character’s rapid death. As a result, players want NPC’s to be point man and charmed orcs to open doors. Experienced players are usually very paranoid about subjecting themselves to any danger above the norm.

Dungeons and Dragons, as is written, should play like a good fantasy story. However, any exciting fantasy writer delights in individual acts of heroism which would be theoretically impossible in D&D. The great dwarven warrior Hendel in The Sword of Shannara, for example, outwits and escapes from an entire army of gnomes and later effectively fights dozens of them. (In this book, gnomes are roughly equivalent to orcs in D&D.) One of my players, after reading The Sword of Shannara remarked that those adventurers must have had a very lenient referee, because he let them get away with so many seemingly impossible feats.

- Doug Green, Rewarding Heroism in D&D, from Dragon #29 publishing date Sept 1979

Doug proposes a variety of rules modifications to make D&D more like a fantasy story, including increased xp rewards for self-sacrifice (rather akin to the idea of awarding victory points for splitting up in a putative horror game I mentioned upthread) and the concept of the 'Heroic Act'. A PC undertaking a Heroic Act, which means fighting against overwhelming odds for the good of the party, gets greatly increased combat abilities, rather like spending a hero point in games such as WEG Star Wars or Mutants & Masterminds.

It's a very prescient article, pointing to the promotion of altruism in Dragonlance and the many subsequent attempts to emulate heroic OTT action in games such as Star Wars, Feng Shui and Spirit of the Century.

 

[the Jester]

[MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION], after some work, I have found a link to the part of the story hour where my campaign hit the Tomb.

 

[Rune]

[MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION], after some work, I have found a link to the part of the story hour where my campaign hit the Tomb.

Spiffy!

 

[pemerton]

It's a very prescient article, pointing to the promotion of altruism in Dragonlance and the many subsequent attempts to emulate heroic OTT action in games such as Star Wars, Feng Shui and Spirit of the Century.

Interesting reference - thanks. (Can't XP you yet.)

 

[billd91]

...

 

[terrya]

So you're saying that the Tomb of Horrors really isn't a hard meat-grinder? See, this is funny. All the people who say that ToH is great because it is over-the-top tough are wrong? It ain't especially tough. The way you're describing all this says ToH is actually pretty easy peasy. So if someone likes it because he considers it especially tough, he's wrong?

Yep, I can totally agree with this. But as I said, it's when *everything* is brilliant that things get weird. X is brilliant because it's well designed. Y is brilliant because it's wonky. Z is both well designed and wonky! And we like it that way! Huh?

Yep. The frustration for discussion though is when people reverse the "wisdom" depending on the outcome:

We died searching for the treasure.
-- Well, you shouldn't have searched.

We didn't find the treasure.
-- Well, you should have searched.

It's like Monday-morning quarterbacking:

The pass is intercepted.
-- The quarterback shouldn't have tried to pass the ball.

The runner fails to score.
-- The quarterback should have thrown a pass.

WARNING THIS POST HOLDS OPINIONS, THEY ARE INDEED ONLY MY OPINION, I DONT NEED YOU TO TELL ME THAT I AM MEARLY GIVING MY OPINION.

I failed to read the rest of the thread after this point, apologies for that but I had to pick up on your im sorry to say quite depressing out look on gaming. When i started playing 1E (And somthing i personally have tryed to keep no matter what E) I was amazed at how it turned the simple things like a bag of grain into a life or death situation because THATS HOW IT WOULD BE IF I WAS STUCK IN A MUDDY DUNGEON LOOKING FOR TREASURE. The how point was to make it realistic, to make you feel like your charecter was an extension of your self and then tempt you with greed into what at times was reward and others death because ill say it again THATS HOW LIFE WORKS BUDDY. If you want a game that provides no real threat comitment or realistic design go play neverwinter or world of warcraft or 4E Modules because quite frankly your get alot more out of it

 

[amerigoV]

I failed to read the rest of the thread after this point,

I would encourage you to read the rest of the thread. Regardless of the opinions that you may dissagree with, there is some very good insights to the module in this thread.

I dare say it is the ONLY thread on ENWorld worth reading past the second page (all others are either go off topic or wind up arguing over the definition of "hollaback girl" - this has stayed on topic, civil, and interesting).

 

[terrya]

I would encourage you to read the rest of the thread. Regardless of the opinions that you may dissagree with, there is some very good insights to the module in this thread.

I dare say it is the ONLY thread on ENWorld worth reading past the second page (all others are either go off topic or wind up arguing over the definition of "hollaback girl" - this has stayed on topic, civil, and interesting).

I already did and would agree this and the other thread about the Toh have reminded me about a lot of my own fond memories of more classic gaming and I have loved reading the brake down these guys have provided but Bullgrit seems to want a module that is designed to provide a fantasy world were no skill is required, no real threat is presented and a medicore story is followed and I just cant understand why he wouldnt look to computer game titles for this. For example the group I play with on Thursdays would totally agree with bulgritt they play 4E and think its the best thing ever, they look at me funny when i mention marching orders or when i say no you cant make an arcana check to instantly know everything about a monster youve just met for the first time. The experiance they enjoy is following the story were playing,which is a great one btw (war of the burning sky) but it is not the spirit in which any of the grewyhawk / 1E were written. Gary designed a world that was realistic and designed to test your ability as a person, not your ability to design a charecter with stupidly written feats and over the top resources and then watch them never be challenged whilst they follow what turns into a very mundane story quite quickly because as with stories THERE IS NEVER ANY REAL THREAT TO THE MAIN CHARECTERS!

 

[amerigoV]

but Bullgrit seems to want a module that is designed to provide a fantasy world were no skill is required, no real threat is presented and a medicore story is followed and I just cant understand why he wouldnt look to computer game titles for this.

In Bullgrit's defense (since he is on vacation), I think he has another angle. Many fans of ToH claim that superior player skill allows you to "win" this module with hardly any damage. His contention is not that challenging players or threatening PCs is bad, it is just that player skill is not truly going to win the day in ToH. There is a hefty serving luck needed to get through as well as skill. The post you quoted from him illustrated that there are inconsistencies in playing the module -- sometimes caution works, other times it gets you killed.

ToH has two extreme camps -- its just a killer dungeon vs. player skill. This thread shows it falls somewhere in between depending on some luck along the way.

 

[terrya]

In Bullgrit's defense (since he is on vacation), I think he has another angle. Many fans of ToH claim that superior player skill allows you to "win" this module with hardly any damage. His contention is not that challenging players or threatening PCs is bad, it is just that player skill is not truly going to win the day in ToH. There is a hefty serving luck needed to get through as well as skill. The post you quoted from him illustrated that there are inconsistencies in playing the module -- sometimes caution works, other times it gets you killed.

ToH has two extreme camps -- its just a killer dungeon vs. player skill. This thread shows it falls somewhere in between depending on some luck along the way.

The inconsistencies are common in all of the older modules, as they are in real life. For example I would compare searching a sack full of grain to asking a girl if she would like to have sex. She may say yes and youve just hit the jackpot (the grain had a +4 sword in it) or she may slap you and call over her 6 ft 8 Body building Bf (save vs poison or die). This is what makes for good role playing and attatchment to your charecter because its actually realistic enough for you to become engrosed in the experiance and not the number you rolled on your dice.

I personally believe from what I have seen TOH was designed to test a certian genre of player skill (one that I and many others love) but is not a test of inteligance, just experiance, persistance and at times both logical and ilogical thought. Which is brilliant considering its meant to be designed by a long dead mad lich, again realism!

I may be way off the mark in saying it but bullgrit seems to off had a bad experiance playing the module as it doesnt fit his style of play more than anything. That or he strugled with it but i doubt it as he does seem to be a pretty smart guy and if he did he was just being lazy, which is what some people game to be.

It suprises me how many people share his opinion also, people who have played since 1E and actually think that games improved. The whole argument around this module is just another way of arguing Story telling vs crafting your own story with a strong hint of paranoia! Some more time constricted games will always prefer story telling but then they cant call them self role players and as ive stated before will simply get more from a computer game and should not even try to play a module written by Gary or 99% of pre 3.X material.