Tome of Magic

[Mercule]

I've been trying to come up with a flat formula for the other two lexicons that mirrors the Perfected Map, for people who dislike the flavor of using CR as the basis for these mechanics, but I haven't yet found one I'm happy with.

This is what I'd like to see. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's just something about using CR as a DC that seems wrong. Maybe it's because I see CR as being a somewhat arbitrary number. I appreciate the original intent of using a non-save-based mechanism, though.

 

[Mouseferatu]

This is what I'd like to see. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there's just something about using CR as a DC that seems wrong. Maybe it's because I see CR as being a somewhat arbitrary number. I appreciate the original intent of using a non-save-based mechanism, though.

The problem, really, is this:

If one goes with a flat formula, one has to include a saving throw mechanic for balance reasons.

If one does not go with a flat formula, one has to include a mechanic that scales with the difficulty of the opponent, and while CR has problems, it's still the most solid available.

Now, some of the Truenamer's powers already allow saves, so I'm not opposed to using them, and in fact that's the direction my thoughts have been going. It's just a shame. I really appreciate what Dave did with this system; I just know it's not for everyone.

 

[Mr Baron]

The book gets a thumbs up from me. I am trying to work some of the stuff into my current campaign.

 

[GQuail]

I really appreciate what Dave did with this system; I just know it's not for everyone.

Despite some issues with the mechanics, I do think there's some cool stuff in the Truename section of Tome of Magic, and I'd love to see it in play to see how it actually works: it may well turn out a lot better in the swing of things than some of the nay-sayers think.

Re: the CR basis for the roll making buffing your allies harder over time: would people on this thread consider playing a caster who had more spells per day than a normal Cleric or Wizard, but in exchange his allies always had to roll saves for his spells, even "harmless" ones like Cure Light Wounds? How many more spells per day would balance off such a feature?

 

[Nightfall]

The mechanics might need work, but honestly, it's a decent try to use Truenaming as spellcasting.

Certainly though perhaps instead of CR, one might use cay an Ability score instead or a Fort saves?

 

[Andor]

I think perhaps the problem is that for inspiration the Author only looked to literature rather than perusing the bredth of RPGs. Perhaps it was why this was a fairly clumsy attempt at a skill based magic system.

Skill based magic systems have been done lots of times, and in fact they often have a noun + verb based system. Both Ars Magica and World Tree use such systems to excellent effect. The difference is that they use multiple skills. A problem perhaps for D&D since the d20 system doesn't use the (Skill + Skill + Die roll VS TN) system although I don't see why you couldn't patch one in. In both cases as well the Magic system takes up a good chunk of a large book, using far more space than was alloted to the individual systems in ToM.

OTOH a multiple skill system using normal d20 mechanics has been done before, by WOTC even, in d20 Star Wars. It was kind of awkward however, personally if I were to do one I'd provide a second, seperate pool of skill points for use only in the magic system.

While I'm a fan of skill based magic systems (properly executed) I'm not even sure that Truenaming was the proper place for one. The truenamers in the chapter don't look much like those in Myth and Liturature. It's worth noting that the Fiendbinder prestige class and the Truename using spells look much more like fictional Truenamers than the actual class, as well as being more powerful.

In the end I don't think there is a clear enough goal in the chapter for what Truenamers do. They are kind of set up as magical generalists, which is silly, we have several powerful magical generalists already. When I think of Truenames I think of someone using them to gain great power over an individual whose truname the have somehow aquired. In MMORPG terms I suppose this would be a 'Pet' class where the Truenamer aquires a minion, perhaps a small fey at low levels and dominates powerful outsiders at high levels.

 

[Nightfall]

Andor,

You do raise a good point but if we are to have "variant" on casting, then maybe skill based casting still needs to be considered. Just saying it's worth considering in my mind...

 

[woodelf]

Typically, the three magic forms rate like this in popularity:
1) pact magic
2) shadow magic
3) truename magic

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the reason for this is because pact magic seems like it is the most powerful and truename magic seems like it is the least powerful. I believe the reason for this perception is because pact magic gives your character a lot of static bonuses that your character can "walk around with," much like the cleric can walk around with hour/level and 10 min/level effects like freedom of movement, death ward, magic vestment, greater magic weapon, etc. The more effects you can pile onto your character the higher the perceived effectiveness.

Shadow magic on the other hand is utility magic. The shadowcaster doesn't "cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down." He casts spells that immobilize or hinder enemies and overcome trials. In that respect he is like an enchanter or illusionist specialist wizard who has prohibited evocation and necromancy. Not a lot of death happening, but a remarkably useful character. He has a lot of tricks up his sleeve that make otherwise challenging situations a piece of cake. For that reason, he is well-liked.

The truenamer is the red-headed step-child of the bunch because of that ever so touchy subject of the DCs that scale with CR. This means that a truenamer's spells are always going to be challenging to cast unless he is casting them on low-CR opponents. The truenamer is every bit as powerful as the others, however, his magic is not as constant/long-lasting as the binder's and not as reliable as the shadowcaster's.

I love the pact magic. Shadow magic seems interesting. Truename magic (as implemented in ToM) doesn't interest me. I came to these conclusions before i'd read enough of any of them to judge relative power or utility. My opinion is based almost purely on the flavor. I then read enough of the mechanics to realize that shadowmagic is pretty much just the same 9 spell levels and the same sorts of spellslots, with a little more flexibility, and it became considerably less interesting to me--i want different not just in capabilities, but in flavor and mechanics, too. It's too similar to standard D&D spellcasting, for my tastes. The truename stuff pretty much completely failed to grab me, so i haven't even read all the mechanics, much less all the details. If not for threads online, i wouldn't even know about the DC problem. And, not having used any of them in play yet, i can't really say what's the most powerful or the must useful. I just know that pact magic is the only one i'd ever want to play.

So, I follow what is apparently the general trend in ranking them, but it has absolutely nothing to do with power, or even utility. I just think the pact magic is the most original of the 3, and the most flavorful. I might not be the only one.

I'll also say that, on the strength of the pact magic section alone, ToM is worth the cost. It and Magic of Incarnum are the only WotC books i've considered worth buying since around '95.

Oh, and added praise for ToM as being the first non-ugly D&D3[.5]E book.

 

[Nightfall]

Agreed, Tome of Magic is very, very pretty book.

But overall, Pact magic is better (mechanic wise) than Truename and to a certain extent, Shadow Magic too.

 

[guumby]

On the issue of truenamer mechanics, these are some house rules we have adopted:

EM DC: 10 + CR/HD + 5*utterance lvl
map / item DC: 20 + 5*utterance lvl
Law of Resistance: 1 + utterance lvl
know personal truename: +10 competence bonus to truespeak

add bonus feat (skill focus truespeak) at 1st lvl (who isn't going to get it anyway)
add speak language as class skill
truespeak synergy bonus: +1 per 3 languages known

I love the concept and the feel of the class, but the mechanics don’t seem to fit the class very well. The above was an attempt to make it flow more, linking utterance level more with DC and retries. If nothing else, the synergy bonus with known languages seems a no-brainer to have added.

We haven’t play-tested it fully yet, but it seems to work well so far. Allows low-level utterances (makes since as they are weaker anyway) to be used more often, while limiting the higher ones. The EM utterances are still linked to CR, but not as much. I was upset that all that effort and cash for researching a personal truename gave such a sucky result, so a greater bonus was added (be sure to know your friends truenames!).

So far there has been no need to resort to large skill bonus items (limit it to headbands of int, other standard core stuff, no amulet); it feels better for the flair of the class to keep it this way.