Trading in Heavy armor

[winterwolf]

I would allow certain paladin concepts to trade in armor types for certain other abilities.
In one of the campaigns I'm playing in, players can play chaotic or neutral good paladins, as per the Unearthed Arcana book. I would allow an elven paladin of Corellon (for example) to switch out medium and heavy armor for, say, precise shot (or point blank shot). It would be a virtual feat, lost (with all feats that have it as a prerequisite) if the paladin ever picked up medium or heavy armor. In this case, I would also make his smite evil only work against ranged targets. I know this changes the class around (shame on me) but he still won't be as good at archery as a ranger, will lose one of the hallmarks of his class (high AC) and gives him some flavor. This way, not every paladin is identical to all other paladins (and it makes more sense to me...a devotee of the god of archery and scouting probably won't be a platemail-wearing sword-swinger, although he very well could be).
The forgotten realms has an example of this rule bending: Druids of Mielikki (god of rangers, nature, and animals for those of you who don't play FR) can use ranger weapons.
Don't know what page it is in the 3.5 DMG, but page 146 of the 3.0 DMG has several option ways you can "break the rules" by changing around classes.
IMO, if you don't think the change will break the game, go with it. Depending on how strong-willed your players are, you might want to ask them before you change such a rule though. After all, if you change the rule for one player, all the other players should be able to play the same style of paladin. If you decide that that change is too powerful (after a while playing with it) inform the rest of the group and never let it be changed like that again (but don't just take it away from the current player...you don't need to punish him).

 

[Kazuel]

Ok, since some of you assume I'm just trying to get something for nothing (ie, trading in something I wasn't going to use for something I will), let me explain why I want to do this. I'm coming into a level 5 campaign and I'm going to be playing a Ninja/Paladin. Before you nay sayers jump my back again, let me say that I already have DM approval to do this (hell it was even his idea) and he asked me to come here and find a suitable substitute for the armor feats. I don't power game and have no desire to do so. I only want to run unique and interesting characters and sometimes you have to bend or break the rules to do so. How boring your games must be if everything is so cookie cutter....

 

[winterwolf]

If you wanted to play a ninja paladin (and had DM approval) I would say switch medium and heavy armor for improved unarmed strike or the ability to have hide and move silently as class skills (either the feat or the two skills, selected at character level). Another thing that wouldn't be broken (and would actually be an uneven tradeoff) would be alertness for medium and heavy armor. In fact, alertness for just the heavy armor wouldn't be an unfair trade.
However, I would make those virtual feats...if you gain heavy armor proficiency (and use heavy armor) I would say that whatever you traded for it would become unavailable while using heavy armor.
You might want to talk about losing all of your martial weapon proficiencies for some ninja-like weapons (out of Oriental adventures, arms and equipment guide, or Sword and Fist).
And I have to agree with the cookie cutter thing. Playing weird (but balanced) character classes can add a great deal of fun. However, I have played in regular, by the book games that are just as fun as some of the outlandish things.

 

[irdeggman]

I don't think I'd do what your DM is doing because it opens up a huge Pandora's box of variants for multi-class characters.

For example what if your 5th level character was a fighter 1 wizard 4? Why not trade in all of the armor proficiencies since your PC wouldn't want the Arcane Spell Failure chance?

Or a Barbarian/fighter combo - the barbarian loses a lot of his class abilities inheavy armor.

Or a druid/fighter? A druid is forbidden from wearing or using weapons and armor not on his list?

A better starting class combo would have been a ranger/ninja. They are more complimentary in theme.

Paladin/ninja just requires some real history issues to work. The classes are designed to be very much in opposition to each other by core function and design. Paladins are not really sneaky they tend to be very up front with what they are, what they do and what they beleive while ninjas thrive in secrecy.

But regardless if you must do this (because the DM is making a strong suggestion towards this) then something along the lines of skill focus - knowledge (royalty and nobility) might work fairly well. About as useful as far as the character concept is going and the specific area of knowledge is something that both classes would have a strong affinity towards and still not come up so often that it becomes unbalancing.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I don't think I'd do what your DM is doing because it opens up a huge Pandora's box of variants for multi-class characters.

No it doesn't. The DM didn't approve any of those variants.

 

[irdeggman]

No it doesn't. The DM didn't approve any of those variants.

Have any other players asked about it?

Do they know about this special case of your character?

Do they feel like they are being cheated because they couldn't do the same thing?

Just because a DM didn't allow it doesn't mean that he hasn't opened up the box.

I know that if I was in the game and another player was gettign special deals for his character I would feel real slighted if I didn't get something for my character.

The DM has opened the door for much (or potentially so) discussion and disagreements with his "calls" because he is giving one character "special treatment".

IMO this is flat out wrong and unfair to the other players. Now if the Dm has been doing this all along by "tweaking" other players' characters in likemanner then it is all good and "fair" but we haven't been given that information.

Balance isn't about the relative power of individual characters it is really about treating players the same and fairly.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I agree with irdeggman. I can't believe you used "ninja/paladin" and "don't powergame" in the same sentence.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I agree with irdeggman. I can't believe you used "ninja/paladin" and "don't powergame" in the same sentence.

It's really very similar to Paladin / Rogue.

 

[Kazuel]

I agree with irdeggman. I can't believe you used "ninja/paladin" and "don't powergame" in the same sentence.

Well lets consider the facts of the Ninja Paladin.

1. Because I'm taking levels in Ninja and there for half my levels will be a D6 hit die, I'll never be able to tank like a normal paladin or any fighting class could.

2. Because I'm taking levels in Paladin, I loose alot of skill points and will never be as good as the rogue and maybe bard.

3. Because Ninja and Paladin are polar opposites as far as core stat abilities, EVERY stat is important. All 6 of them. Of couse not all my stats are going to be spectacular but I'll have to make due.

4. Because I'm splitting my levels as a paladin and ninja, my sudden strike will never be maxed out which limits the damage I'm going to be doing. And my smite evil will never do a ton of damage either.


On another note, my DM is very liberal with letting characters do special things, and our player base is mature enough not to abuse that.

 

[irdeggman]

On another note, my DM is very liberal with letting characters do special things, and our player base is mature enough not to abuse that.

So all is good then (I think I said that in my earlier post).

There are several other restrictions/issues on playing a paladin/ninja that whoudl be considered. These are assuming a core paladin (PHB style and not one of the variant ones from UA or other books) and the base ninja from Complete Adventurer and not some other version.


I already mentioned the paladins' propensity to proclaim their faith and not hide it. Again this is in direct contrast to the ninja way of like in not calling attention to themsleves in any way.

As far as abilities go - Wisdom is essential for both. The ninja gets an Ac bonus based on his Wisdom and the paladin uses it for spells. IMO more beneficial for a ninja then a paladin but still useful for both.

Ninja High Dex and High Wisdom

Paladin - High Char and High Wisdom.

Both benefit from Str and Con.

Since the Ninja has that Sudden strike ability high Str is real useful.

Ninjas get the poison use ability. Using poison is considered evil in the core rules so is in contradictin to the paladin code of conduct (not using poison is specifically listed).


Since you are giving up heavy armor both classes benefit equally from a high dex, add to that the Ac benefit from Wis for the ninja class it gets pretty powerful.

I still think a ranger/ninja makes a whole lot more sense and is not a living contradiction.