D&D 4E Tripping, Disarm, and other maneuvers in 4e

[Ryujin]

I'm definitely against disarm in 4e. With one action against a Swordmage you could simultaneously remove his implement, his weapon, and drop his AC by 3. THAT isn't over powered?

 

[jayphonic]

Re: trips and disarms

First off, the trip and disarm maneuvers are represented in the game through powers. This is a major mechanic baked into 4e. Many powers knock an opponent prone. Disarm is the sole providence of the Fighter but other characters can easily get the ability through multiclassing if it is essential to their concept.

Secondly, disarming in a climactic battle sounds like a perfect opportunity for a skill challenge.

 

[LostSoul]

I'm definitely against disarm in 4e. With one action against a Swordmage you could simultaneously remove his implement, his weapon, and drop his AC by 3. THAT isn't over powered?

With a minor action he can pick his sword back up. So, no.

You need at least two standard actions - a disarm and something to move him, and then a minor action to grab the weapon. Not all monsters have a (good) forced movement power; those that do might as well put it to use.

Compare the disarmed swordmage against two normal successful attacks. With two actions, a Swordmage could lose half his hit points / be prone and dazed / stunned and damaged / etc. Is it still overpowered considering that?

Maybe.

 

[LostSoul]

Secondly, disarming in a climactic battle sounds like a perfect opportunity for a skill challenge.

That is an interesting idea. I wonder how it would work out?

 

[Ryujin]

With a minor action he can pick his sword back up. So, no.

You need at least two standard actions - a disarm and something to move him, and then a minor action to grab the weapon. Not all monsters have a (good) forced movement power; those that do might as well put it to use.

Compare the disarmed swordmage against two normal successful attacks. With two actions, a Swordmage could lose half his hit points / be prone and dazed / stunned and damaged / etc. Is it still overpowered considering that?

Maybe.

Consider that two minions, acting in concert, could open the way for a bigger baddie to stomp the Swordmage into the ground, if anyone was capable of disarming. That sword doesn't get picked up until his turn.

(Yes, I know, he summons it back to his hand with his next action)

 

[jayphonic]

That is an interesting idea. I wonder how it would work out?

Let's take the example at the beginning of this thread. The massive Ogre that is the captain of the guard in the evil organization. Let's make it a complexity 2 challenge (6 successes vs 3 failures). Obviously scale the DC of the challenge to your party. You'll want a challenge that all party members could potentially be able to contribute with. Also, this particular challenge occurs during the combat itself. In this instance a party member can use a minor action to participate in the skill challenge.

Available Skills:
Perception - (Usable once) discover that anyone adjacent to the Ogre and and has combat advantage will receive a +2 to a bluff skill challenge check to disarm the Ogre additionally, a thievery skill success in this position will result in 2 successes instead of one.
Insight - (usable once) discover that intimidate skill will result in an automatic failure as the Ogre will become enraged and tighten his grip on the weapon.
Athletics - (usable multiple times) you trip the ogre causing him to stumble slightly and loosen his grip.
Acrobatics - (usable multiple times) Your maneuver causes the ogre to lose track of you and helps to disarm him.
Bluff - (usable multiple times) - you trick the Ogre into loosening his grip
Thievery - (usable multiple times) You swipe at the object/weapon in the ogre's hand)

Add additional skills to use based on the make up of your party. Maybe another insight check will give you ideas on his motivations. A dungeonering check can locate a crack in the floor...etc.

 

[Regicide]

Grab might be an option, but it it only works on creatures. Stunning doesn't cause weapons to drop in 4E, but then there's always domination and unconsciousness!

 

[tyrlaan]

First off, the trip and disarm maneuvers are represented in the game through powers. This is a major mechanic baked into 4e. Many powers knock an opponent prone. Disarm is the sole providence of the Fighter but other characters can easily get the ability through multiclassing if it is essential to their concept.

So a warlord, bard, rogue, ranger, and so on need to multiclass if they want to be able to disarm? I call shens.

Personally, I find it hard that anyone can accept this as a legitimate "solution" to handling disarm or similar maneuvers. To start with the basics, I don't buy into a combat maneuver being defined as "usable only by a specific character class once per encounter or less or someone who has spent two feats to cherry pick this same ability."

A combat maneuver is something that should have a reasonable chance of being available as an option worth considering. It shouldn't be arbitrarily once per encounter, and then only available to a very small few. Power attack is a combat maneuver. Someone with that feat can use it whenever they want and it has a cost associated with it such that it isn't a "no-brainer."

 

[jayphonic]

To start with the basics, I don't buy into a combat maneuver being defined as "usable only by a specific character class once per encounter or less or someone who has spent two feats to cherry pick this same ability.

I think that's where the problem lies, the designers and I both certainly disagree with your basic premise. There is no reason why a house rule won't suffice but the 4e system was specifically designed to get rid of actions like disarm and sunder, because they make the game LESS fun.

Again, that has been my experience and YMMV.

 

[Leatherhead]

If you want to get technical, you can use an unarmed strike for any weapon power unless that power also requires a specific weapon. In which case the power is designed so that the PCs can make the monster less of a threat by disarming them.

Also of note: Monster powers don't use [W] damage.

So, for the most part, disarming monsters does nothing.