D&D 4E Tripping, Disarm, and other maneuvers in 4e

[Nymrohd]

It's not hard to build a trip monkey in 4e. Just play a polearm fighter that has the footwork lure at-will and the polearm momentum feat, and you have a fighter that effectively has a tripping at-will.

Exactly trip builts are easy in 4E and there are many of them.

Disarm does not fit 4E paradigms. It fits 3.5 were every ability had a hard counter. Antimagic and high SR tramples spellcasters. Excessive DR tramples physical damage, disarming tramples weapon users, immunity abjurations negate everything else. In the end a well prepared group fighting an enemy that has taken some time to observe them has complete immunity to whatever the opponent can dish, and he has the same, and everything is judged on who can dispel the other quicker. And if something cannot be dispelled then a player may very well end up a cheerleader for the rest of the fight. 4E takes this to the opposite extreme where it is relatively hard to actually make a dent in the opponents offense by careful preparation (unless you spend your days making potions and elixirs), but I for one prefer this end of the spectrum.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't think I'm following the logic that disarms and trips are so game-breaking. If you make them insanely simple to do, well then yes. But if they are a balanced option I don't see a problem.

I don't see why someone shouldn't have the option to try to disarm an opponent every round if they want to, but that doesn't mean they have to succeed each try.

maybe I am just odd but I don't like giving 'fake' options. Back in 2e I had a Dm who had a rule called 'God call" you yell for your diety and he may help you. it was only on a 100 on the % dice that it worked inless you were a cleric or paliden then it was 99 or 100. It took the whole round to do it though.

I saw many players die trying to call for divine intervention, I only once saw it work (ironicly my first and only time trying it I had 1 hp left was a paliden and was facing an oncoming terrasque at 8th level and I yelled to thor, and he came down and killed the beast)

If something is VERY unlikely why even state it as an option, just call it a daily and say "It only works sometimes"

there is a high paragon fighter daily that disarms...so no heroic character should NEVER have an option to do so...

How would you balance it...maybe Str Vs AC+10...that way people wast turns trying it???

 

[Pseudopsyche]

Alternatively, you could make the disarming a skill challenge contained in the fight. I'm sure it would not be tough to come up with a handful of skills you could use, make it impossible to fail so that failing a check only means one more round of deadly combat with a guy 9 levels over them, not failure of the mission.

This solution seems a good fit for the particular situation that the OP described. In this case, the PCs don't want to disarm opponents as a regular tactic; they just want to disarm this particular opponent in this particular encounter. A skill challenge, in which the PCs must achieve some number of successes before the ogre kills them, sounds like it could be fun!

Once a player wants to disarm opponents in every combat, at that point I would tell the player to find or propose a reasonably balanced power.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Tripping someone is not "unbalanced" per se, the question is how often you can do it?

Knocking enemies prone is definitely a powerful ability, since you can effectively negate or at least severaly hamper their abilities. Trip your opponent, and shift back one square. All your allies (if in melee) can now use the combat advantage he grants to bring home a powerful attack, and then shift away, too. On his turn, the opponent stands up, and finds that no opponent is within reach or charge range, and all he can do is move closer to an enemy. (The immobilized condition is very similar to this in that regard.)
With a mosnter relying on ranged or area attacks, instead of shifting away, everyone moves adjacent - now the enemy has to spend a move action to stand up and then try to make a weak melee attack (low damage, low attack bonus), provoke an opportunity attack, or try to run away (probably also provoking opportunity attacks.)

You could try to change this by making the option very hard, but then - who would use it? And it invites to create mechanics that remove that weakness, and it becomes an easily (ab)used tactic. I think the best guess is to make it a conditional option - putting it into a encounter or daily power always does this, but of course using "stunts" you might also add some more flexibility.

 

[LostSoul]

I say:

Trip
At-Will
Standard Action * Melee 1
Target: One creature
Attack: Str vs Fort
Hit: The target falls prone.

Disarm
At-Will * Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Str vs Ref+2
Hit: The target's weapon falls to the ground in his space.


Neither one is game-breaking. I might even allow 1d4+Str mod damage on the trip attack.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I say:

Trip
At-Will
Standard Action * Melee 1
Target: One creature
Attack: Str vs Fort
Hit: The target falls prone.

Disarm
At-Will * Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Str vs Dex+2
Hit: The target's weapon falls to the ground in his space.


Neither one is game-breaking. I might even allow 1d4+Str mod damage on the trip attack.

So round 1 my fighter disarms your hobgoblin, then calls action point and picks up the sword...fight over wow that was easy

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Hobgoblin Warrior Level 8 Minion
Medium natural humanoid XP 88
Initiative +7 Senses Perception +5; low-light vision
HP 1: a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 22 (24 with phalanx soldier); Fortitude 20, Refl ex 18, Will 18
Str 19 (+7) Dex 14 (+5) Wis 14 (+5)
Con 15 (+5) Int 11 (+3) Cha 10 (+3)
Equipment scale armor, light shield, longsword

Dex+2 equals 16...lowest def ever...

Hobgoblin Soldier Level 3 Soldier
Medium natural humanoid XP 150
Initiative +7 Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
HP 47; Bloodied 23
AC 20 (22 with phalanx soldier); Fortitude 18, Refl ex 16, Will 16
Str 19 (+5) Dex 14 (+3) Wis 14 (+3)
Con 15 (+3) Int 11 (+1) Cha 10 (+1)
Equipment scale armor, heavy shield, fl ail

Dex+2 is 16...wow

Hobgoblin Hand of Bane Level 8 Elite Soldier
Medium natural humanoid XP 700
Initiative +8 Senses Perception +5; low-light vision
HP 184; Bloodied 92; see also Bane’s blessing
AC 26; Fortitude 24, Refl ex 22, Will 23
Str 22 (+10) Dex 17 (+8) Wis 18 (+8)
Con 20 (+9) Int 14 (+6) Cha 21 (+9)
Equipment plate armor, heavy shield, fl ail

level 8 elite dex+2 is 19...his lowest def is 22 3pts higher


lets take a level 1 fighter with an 18 Str and a sword...+1 class +3 prof +4 str...so +8 to hit.... he can solo the level 8 elite with this power...on an 11


by the way here are the full stats of this one

Hobgoblin Hand of Bane Level 8 Elite Soldier
Medium natural humanoid XP 700
Initiative +8 Senses Perception +5; low-light vision
HP 184; Bloodied 92; see also Bane’s blessing
AC 26; Fortitude 24, Refl ex 22, Will 23
Saving Throws +2
Speed 5
Action Points 1
m Flail of Dread (standard; at-will) ✦ Fear, Weapon
+12 vs. AC; 1d10 + 6 damage, the target is marked until the end
of the hobgoblin hand of Bane’s next turn, and the hand of Bane
makes a secondary attack against the same target. Secondary
Attack: +10 vs. Will; the target takes a –2 penalty to all defenses
until the end of the encounter or until the hand of Bane dies.
M Flail of Tyranny (standard; recharge ⚅ ) ✦ Weapon
Requires fl ail; +12 vs. AC; 2d10 + 6 damage, and the target is
stunned until the end of the hobgoblin hand of Bane’s next turn.
Bane’s Blessing (when first bloodied; encounter)
The hobgoblin hand of Bane gains a +4 bonus to damage rolls for
the rest of the encounter.
Hobgoblin Resilience (immediate reaction, when the hobgoblin
hand of Bane suffers an effect that a save can end; encounter)
The hobgoblin hand of Bane rolls a saving throw against the
eff ect.
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Goblin
Skills Athletics +11, Intimidate +14, History +13, Religion +11
Str 22 (+10) Dex 17 (+8) Wis 18 (+8)
Con 20 (+9) Int 14 (+6) Cha 21 (+9)
Equipment plate armor, heavy shield, fl ail

notice he has 1 flail and all his attacks require it...

 

[Mistwell]

For disarm, I'd go with:

Spend an action point, and as a standard action you can make one basic attack with a -2 penalty vs. the target's reflex before the end of this turn. If you hit, the target drops their weapon in their square.

 

[LostSoul]

So round 1 my fighter disarms your hobgoblin, then calls action point and picks up the sword...fight over wow that was easy

Sure, if you want to spend 2 standard actions.

Note that it's a minor action to pick up an object in your space or in an unoccupied square within reach. I personally assume that means you can't just grab it from his square; you'll need to push him away first. Which might not be too hard, but still.

Also, the Hand of Bane's attack has the Weapon keyword. I notice he has a shield; is there any reason why he can't use that? It doesn't specifically say "requires flail" like some other monsters do (Drow Blademaster, for example). I'd lower damage to 1d4+6 and subtract 2 from his attack rolls, but that doesn't mean the fight's over.

edit: Flail of Tyranny does require the flail.

 

[Turtlejay]

Once a player wants to disarm opponents in every combat, at that point I would tell the player to find or propose a reasonably balanced power.

Right here. There are builds that trip. These require an envestment in feats or powers to achieve. Giving those for free to every character is unbalancing. And disarming is silly. The hobgoblin example above illustrates it. Except in clearly defined situations I don't think I'd allow it. On the flip side, would you like the DM using this on you? Ganged by goblin minions who disarm and trip you, now you have to spend a move to stand, and you have lost your weapon. You are effectively out for the fight. Situations that knock you out of the fight (death, petrification) should not be that easy to accomplish.

Jay