D&D 5E True Polymorph

[MarkB]

Ah, good question.
The Simulacrum casts the spell Simulacrum on you (the original), thereby creating a 'fresh' copy of you with all your spells (the next day).
Lather rinse repeat.
You will have all the money you need from them casting Wish for 25k.
Then, they cast True Polymorph on fresh copies later, when they copy you with all your spells.
You command each copy that they have to follow your commands, and when they are changed by True Polymorph, they keep their memories.

So, you tell the first Simulacrum to make a copy of you, and that he tells the copy to follow your commands.
The chain of command will never be broken

As far as I can figure out, that just means that they remember being ordered to follow your commands, and that, at the time, they felt compelled to do so. It doesn't actually perpetuate the compulsion itself.

Furthermore, since they have your memories, they know precisely why they felt that compulsion, and why it would no longer apply to them.

Still, it could go either way, and you're the DM.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Fair enough. My preference is to just tell them that their simulacrums still count as themselves (including for casting Wish) and therefore can't have a simulacrum of their own (because if the simulacrum creates a simulacrum the first simulacrum will disappear).

I share that preference, that at my own table it has not yet come up because my players would rather be casting prismatic spray, teleport, Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, or reverse gravity with their 7th level spell slots.

I still think antimagic field is too small to be effective (25' diameter). Maybe if you use a chokepoint, but against an army of wizards who can just Misty Step, its efficacy is questionable at best.

EDIT
Sorry, forgot one of my talking points. Antimagic field isn't really a great way to defend against magic. The clone mage army can just use Telekinesis to drop heavy objects on you. Since you're inside an Antimagic Field, you can't even use magic to defend against those attacks.

Rearranged your post to keep the topics straight in my reply, hope you don't mind.

The effectiveness of the antimagic field is that most of the spells a wizard, and thus the simulacrum army of a wizard, will bring to bear will not be able to target you at the center of it. You've got a point about telekinesis still being an option, but that brings into the discussion that the field of battle must be chosen carefully, and one could limit the danger of objects by making sure most things are outside of a particular range of weight - keep things either too heavy for telekinetic manipulation, or too light to do serious damage. Plus there is the matter of telekinetic assault potentially being very slow if objects need to be moved further than a round of manipulation will allow in order to be adequately hurtful.

I think a severe alteration of your opponent's offensive strategy like that is worth calling "effective."

Similarly, I believe that dispel magic used to have an area effect option, but in 5e it is a targeted effect only. As such, it's not much use as a trap.

The area effect version of prior editions was useful, that's for sure, but I don't feel that the nonexistence of an area version actually reduces the spell's use as a trap.

For example, we can take the poison darts trap example from the DMG and alter it to make an effective dispel magic trap to be used against this hypothetical army.

That trap consists of a pressure plate, and when that plate is activated, 4 darts are fired at random targets within 10 feet of the pressure plate.

All we have to do is change the +8 bonus to the attack roll and 1d4 piercing damage plus a DC 15 Constitution saving throw to determine full or half damage of the 2d10 poison damage into whatever level of dispel magic casting we wish to use and the related check (if any, since this could theoretically be a 9th level casting and not need to make a check regardless the spells active on the target).

You certainly do have countermeasures at your disposal as the DM. A mage creating a clone mage army could easily draw the attention of the gods (who aren't too keen on this mortal growing exponentially in power) or the forces of balance (I don't think this one needs explaining). Of course, if you let the BBEG get away with it but punish the players when they try to do so, your response might be less justifiable...

Of course, a good DM should always make sure not to rule in any way that causes the players to feel they've been treated unfairly, since the goal is to keep everyone coming back for more fun next session.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I share that preference, that at my own table it has not yet come up because my players would rather be casting prismatic spray, teleport, Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, or reverse gravity with their 7th level spell slots.

Rearranged your post to keep the topics straight in my reply, hope you don't mind.

The effectiveness of the antimagic field is that most of the spells a wizard, and thus the simulacrum army of a wizard, will bring to bear will not be able to target you at the center of it. You've got a point about telekinesis still being an option, but that brings into the discussion that the field of battle must be chosen carefully, and one could limit the danger of objects by making sure most things are outside of a particular range of weight - keep things either too heavy for telekinetic manipulation, or too light to do serious damage. Plus there is the matter of telekinetic assault potentially being very slow if objects need to be moved further than a round of manipulation will allow in order to be adequately hurtful.

I think a severe alteration of your opponent's offensive strategy like that is worth calling "effective."

The area effect version of prior editions was useful, that's for sure, but I don't feel that the nonexistence of an area version actually reduces the spell's use as a trap.

For example, we can take the poison darts trap example from the DMG and alter it to make an effective dispel magic trap to be used against this hypothetical army.

That trap consists of a pressure plate, and when that plate is activated, 4 darts are fired at random targets within 10 feet of the pressure plate.

All we have to do is change the +8 bonus to the attack roll and 1d4 piercing damage plus a DC 15 Constitution saving throw to determine full or half damage of the 2d10 poison damage into whatever level of dispel magic casting we wish to use and the related check (if any, since this could theoretically be a 9th level casting and not need to make a check regardless the spells active on the target).

Of course, a good DM should always make sure not to rule in any way that causes the players to feel they've been treated unfairly, since the goal is to keep everyone coming back for more fun next session.

Good points, but I did want to point out that even assuming that the DM feels that the Dispel Magic darts are reasonable, you should expect it to dispel 1 or 2 simulacra, tops. The simulacra can cast Shield, reducing the to hit bonus to + 3. Assuming no dexterity bonus and mage armor, that's 50/50 odds out of the gate. The Con save is probably only a 25% chance of success, but that does mean 1 in 4 make it, hence you end up with one or two simulacra dispelled. Unless the enemy has a way to mass produce these, they're not going to be overwhelmingly effective. Granted, you may have forced them to waste a few spells, but enough to make a difference? Once it's triggered, odds are that the rest of the simulacra will avoid the trap. High intelligence and all that...

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Good points, but I did want to point out that even assuming that the DM feels that the Dispel Magic darts are reasonable, you should expect it to dispel 1 or 2 simulacra, tops.

You misunderstood. I meant entirely replace the darts with castings of dispel magic - no attack rolls, no saving throws, just the normal procedure of resolving the spell with 4 random targets within 10 feet of the pressure plate when triggered.

And I also meant that there would be numerous places such a trap would be set up, not just the one, thus providing the potential to catch more than just a few, even if they are being cautious.

But then, in discussions where the player characters are given X amount of time and resources, I assume their opposition has had at least equal quantities of both, so any time spent on making the army is time the opposition spent preparing to counter said army - otherwise the thought experiment only serves to prove that whichever side of a conflict doesn't know they are in conflict is at severe disadvantage.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So, you tell the first Simulacrum to make a copy of you, and that he tells the copy to follow your commands.
The chain of command will never be broken

...until someone hacks your botnet by spoofing your appearance and voice with Disguise Self and/or the Actor feat, and now suddenly all the Simulacra are following their creator's orders by obeying "that guy", but that guy is no longer you...

 

[Fanaelialae]

You misunderstood. I meant entirely replace the darts with castings of dispel magic - no attack rolls, no saving throws, just the normal procedure of resolving the spell with 4 random targets within 10 feet of the pressure plate when triggered.

And I also meant that there would be numerous places such a trap would be set up, not just the one, thus providing the potential to catch more than just a few, even if they are being cautious.

But then, in discussions where the player characters are given X amount of time and resources, I assume their opposition has had at least equal quantities of both, so any time spent on making the army is time the opposition spent preparing to counter said army - otherwise the thought experiment only serves to prove that whichever side of a conflict doesn't know they are in conflict is at severe disadvantage.

The odds are still not in your favor. Let's assume the wizard that's making these had an Int of 16 (these are being mass produced after all). A simulacrum (7th level spell) has only a 35% chance of being dispelled. A true polymorph has only a 25% chance to be dispelled. Frankly, creating your own simulacrum army is probably a better use of resources, since after the first 1500 gp it is self perpetuating. Admittedly, you need a 17th level mage to pull that off, but if you have the same time and resources... of course, then you have to justify why mage clone armies haven't taken over the world.

EDIT
Additionally, after the first time, what's to stop the clones from casting detect magic to find the traps and either avoiding them, or dispelling them?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Let's assume...

Again, if we are making the thought experiment with one side being clearly disadvantaged by the assumptions we make, all we are going to learn is that a clearly disadvantaged opponent is clearly at a disadvantage. And when assuming that wizard A thinks their opponent is a challenge that is worthy of the effort of creating a simulacrum army, I'd rather the thought experiment actually treat that assumption as correct and make the opposition not only have a 16 intelligence and not put 3rd-level dispel magic in traps intended to stop simulacra, since all it takes to actually have the trap be a worthy challenge is for the dispel magic that it casts to be higher level.

As for why mage clone armies haven't taken over the world, the answer is as simple as that there are other strategies which aren't as time consuming and don't have such exploitable weakness. Not that there is some other scheme which doesn't have any weakness at all, because that's not the case - everything has its counter.

Additionally, after the first time, what's to stop the clones from casting detect magic to find the traps and either avoiding them, or dispelling them?

Nothing. But again, whatever time and resources they spend getting past the dispelling traps is resources they don't have to bring to bear against their opposition, and time their opposition has - so they can finish whatever scheme, accomplish whatever goal, or continue to evade, or otherwise remain undefeated. Or to phrase the last bit differently; the army of simulacra can't be a "win button" if they don't show up in time to win.

 

[ThePolarBear]

And still nobody considers that the second simulacrum ever created would probably immediately say something along the lines of "i wish my master was real and not bound by any type of compulsion" or something along the lines, even before the "chain of command" order pass.

You know... memories and personality...

Either you have them as "machines", with no pre programming and thus something like the chain of command would work OR you have them as thinking creatures and the chain of command would NOT work. "i'm a dispensable quasi real creature that exists only to be fodder but i have a wish spell and free will" is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Again, if we are making the thought experiment with one side being clearly disadvantaged by the assumptions we make, all we are going to learn is that a clearly disadvantaged opponent is clearly at a disadvantage. And when assuming that wizard A thinks their opponent is a challenge that is worthy of the effort of creating a simulacrum army, I'd rather the thought experiment actually treat that assumption as correct and make the opposition not only have a 16 intelligence and not put 3rd-level dispel magic in traps intended to stop simulacra, since all it takes to actually have the trap be a worthy challenge is for the dispel magic that it casts to be higher level.

As for why mage clone armies haven't taken over the world, the answer is as simple as that there are other strategies which aren't as time consuming and don't have such exploitable weakness. Not that there is some other scheme which doesn't have any weakness at all, because that's not the case - everything has its counter.

Nothing. But again, whatever time and resources they spend getting past the dispelling traps is resources they don't have to bring to bear against their opposition, and time their opposition has - so they can finish whatever scheme, accomplish whatever goal, or continue to evade, or otherwise remain undefeated. Or to phrase the last bit differently; the army of simulacra can't be a "win button" if they don't show up in time to win.

The quick and dirty method for doing this requires very little time and effort after the initial startup. A 17+ mage casts Simulacrum (12 hours and 1,500 gp). He then commands this simulacrum to cast Wish to make a simulacrum of the original, to command the new simulacrum created by Wish to obey the original, and to give the new simulacrum the same command. It takes one action to cast Wish, and let's say it takes another separate round to issue this command. So a new simulacrum is created every 2 rounds (12 seconds). That means 5 simulacra per minutes, or 300 simulacra per hour. It's fairly effortless for the wizard at that point; the simulacra are doing all the work while he can read and sip his tea (or whatever). If he gets tired of the noise after 8 hours each day, he can still create 2400 copies of himself per day. Admittedly, they'll lack their 9th level spell slot, but 2400 expendable mages without Wish is still nearly unstoppable.

Granted, as [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] pointed out, since the later generations have merely been commanded to obey the original, you might be able to "hack" them using Disguise Self. But this is a 20 intelligence wizard, so he's probably thought of that. This is easily solved by adding a passcode to their "programming". To make it difficult to hack, simply base it on an equation (not unlike modern day authenticators).

And still nobody considers that the second simulacrum ever created would probably immediately say something along the lines of "i wish my master was real and not bound by any type of compulsion" or something along the lines, even before the "chain of command" order pass.

You know... memories and personality...

Either you have them as "machines", with no pre programming and thus something like the chain of command would work OR you have them as thinking creatures and the chain of command would NOT work. "i'm a dispensable quasi real creature that exists only to be fodder but i have a wish spell and free will" is a recipe for disaster.

That is unlikely to work unless the 20 intelligence wizard is foolish. Thanks to the chain of command he does have control over later generations. The simulacra may have his personality and memories, but fundamentally lack the original's free will. By commanding the first simulacrum to command his simulacrum to cast Wish to make a simulacrum of the original and also command the newly created simulacrum to obey the original, you take free will out of the equation.

Now, the DM could of course decide that the reason no one's doing this is because it always goes out of control and ends badly (the dangers of playing with powers you don't fully comprehend), but it wouldn't be RAW.

 

[ThePolarBear]

That is unlikely to work unless the 20 intelligence wizard is foolish. Thanks to the chain of command he does have control over later generations. The simulacra may have his personality and memories, but fundamentally lack the original's free will. By commanding the first simulacrum to command his simulacrum to cast Wish to make a simulacrum of the original and also command the newly created simulacrum to obey the original, you take free will out of the equation.

Now, the DM could of course decide that the reason no one's doing this is because it always goes out of control and ends badly (the dangers of playing with powers you don't fully comprehend), but it wouldn't be RAW.

For the chain of command to be in effect there has to be a command given. A creature that awakens in existance with the memories of someone else knows exactly what it's going to happen. Being a creature of 17th level with 20 intelligence is exactly the problem. It does not go out of control. It never gets under control of the "original" in the first place. It's allegiance lies in its creator, not on the "original". Therefore it acts to benefit the creator, not the original. It knows that its creator is under compulsion, because it has memories. It knows that the creator has limits because it's a Simulacrum. It knows what the "original" plans are, and usually involve risking the creator's existance one way or another. It acts so that the creator benefits.

If the creature has free will and can somehow think a bit for itself (as the spell seems to imply, by mentioning friendliness and such) then the "army" would be content to exist for a shared purpose OR, as the case of evil plans to be evil, things backfire as soon as there's no direct control for even an instant: The moment the second Simulacrum spell is completed.

That's why i say that it's not a problem if there's no free will. But if there's no free will the chain of command is a burden, not a benefit. Unless there's a command given there's NO action taken. "Open the door" and the door stays open until another command is issued, and the same command is issued to EVERYONE, unless you take time to distinguish WHO has to make something. And this makes things VERY unpractical, defeating the original purpose.