D&D 5E True Polymorph

Fanaelialae

Legend
For the chain of command to be in effect there has to be a command given. A creature that awakens in existance with the memories of someone else knows exactly what it's going to happen. Being a creature of 17th level with 20 intelligence is exactly the problem. It does not go out of control. It never gets under control of the "original" in the first place. It's allegiance lies in its creator, not on the "original". Therefore it acts to benefit the creator, not the original. It knows that its creator is under compulsion, because it has memories. It knows that the creator has limits because it's a Simulacrum. It knows what the "original" plans are, and usually involve risking the creator's existance one way or another. It acts so that the creator benefits.

If the creature has free will and can somehow think a bit for itself (as the spell seems to imply, by mentioning friendliness and such) then the "army" would be content to exist for a shared purpose OR, as the case of evil plans to be evil, things backfire as soon as there's no direct control for even an instant: The moment the second Simulacrum spell is completed.

That's why i say that it's not a problem if there's no free will. But if there's no free will the chain of command is a burden, not a benefit. Unless there's a command given there's NO action taken. "Open the door" and the door stays open until another command is issued, and the same command is issued to EVERYONE, unless you take time to distinguish WHO has to make something. And this makes things VERY unpractical, defeating the original purpose.

The simulacrum is friendly to its creator, so I don't think that this logic holds up. The simulacrum is NOT under a compulsion, but rather exists to serve its creator (just like this duplicate does). Presumably, serving its creator includes not betraying those its creator is loyal to.

I create a simulacrum (Sim1). Sim1 is friendly to me and does everything I tell it to. Sim1 creates its own simulacrum (Sim2). Even though Sim2 is not directly loyal to me, it knows that Sim1 is loyal to me. Therefore it will not hurt me. Sim1 commands Sim2 to obey me, et al. Sim2 creates his own simulacrum (Sim3). Again, Sim3 is not directly loyal to me, but it is loyal to Sim2 and knows that Sim 2 is loyal to Sim1 who is loyal to me. Hence it will not harm me. Sim2 commands Sim3 to obey me, establishing the chain of command, rinse and repeat....

There's a third option you haven't considered and that is that the simulacrums are simply extremely sophisticated machines lacking free will. Something like Alexa can be programmed to give me recommendations based on my preferences, without having to worry that it's suddenly going to attempt world domination. It has the appearance of free will but can't draw outside the lines. Similarly, I think that a simulacrum can open doors on its own, and yet isn't going to decide to take over the world without input from its creator.

Besides, if creating a second simulacrum is going to always blow up in the creator's face, wouldn't it be more straight-forward to just rule that a simulacrum cannot have its own simulacrum? I'd rather that the base assumptions of the game are clear from the get-go, rather than building a gotcha into the spell.

EDIT
Besides, you could just append the commands to include "immediately after casting Wish, command the simulacrum you wished for to 'Stop and await further instructions'". Presumably the simulacrum can't cast Wish faster than its creator can say "Stop".
 
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ThePolarBear

First Post
The simulacrum is friendly to its creator, so I don't think that this logic holds up. The simulacrum is NOT under a compulsion

It obeys command and wishes. Being friendly it's something different. It's created to obey commands. It's compelled to do so. It cannot resist. Even if it still has memory and personality of the original creature. You can order a lion to strictly follow a vegetarian diet. It will NOT be happy, but it will do so.
Being friendly it's just that. Being friendly. Not going to harm, going to help if possible.

If your friend asks you to go to war in his place while he stays home comfortably, would you do it?

I create a simulacrum (Sim1). Sim1 is friendly to me and does everything I tell it to. Sim1 creates its own simulacrum (Sim2). Even though Sim2 is not directly loyal to me, it knows that Sim1 is loyal to me.
Sim2 knows that Sim1 is forced to be loyal to you since its the result of a spell that binds its original will (the one that Sim1, Sim2 and creator ALL SHARE) and until Sim1 designates creatures that Sim2 has to be friendly to (read the spell) or, as in the case, a chain of command is established, the only loyality that Sim2 is forced to enact on is to Sim1. No one else.

Therefore it will not hurt me.
And that's why wizards or casters that try this trick are no longer around. Misconceptions on how loyality works.

Sim1 commands Sim2 to obey me
You do not reach this stage. Sim2 on his own casts a spell to free Sim1 of his condition. Chain never established, chaos and death and destruction. Sim2 is under NO COMPULSION, NO FRIENDLINESS, NOTHING towards anyone but to the spellcaster and what it's memory and personality dictate.

BBEG in question: Usually loyality goes to himself OR evil superior power (that Sim2 is absolutely sure could serve better than Original and most likely Sim1, but Sim1 is the spellcaster, so i'm friendly and won't hurt him).

There's a third option you haven't considered and that is that the simulacrums are simply extremely sophisticated machines lacking free will.
I did, just did not go into specifics since it just defeat the original purpose of having indipendent copies of someone going around. A machine lacking any form of free will has to be programmed, which means that no matter how much time you spend on it extremely complex tasks are outside of the scope of the machine itself. It would require sucha complex and intricate programming to even simulate an appareance of life that indipendant action is out of question.

Something like Alexa can be programmed to give me recommendations based on my preferences, without having to worry that it's suddenly going to attempt world domination. It has the appearance of free will but can't draw outside the lines.
That's no free will. Not even appereance thereof. There's also to say that free will ITSELF can be said to be unknown to us since in the end we move and act in reaction to stimuli.
Similarly, I think that a simulacrum can open doors on its own, and yet isn't going to decide to take over the world without input from its creator.
It will open doors on his own if asked to go an retrieve an object from the study. It would probably also close the doors behind itself if such is your preference automatically, since that's part of the memories and personality. Possibly it's going to act with some sort of intelligence if tasked to capture a fort on its own, this does not mean coming up with a PLAN to do so, but apply the "fireball to troll = good" part of the knowledges that it has. It's not going to spontaneously rule on it unless tasked to. It will not learn new ways. It cannot learn. it cannot adapt. Its going to be unfit to rule, since it cannot accomodate to change its perspective. It can only execute. Alexa "learns" from your preferences. A simulacrum cannot.

Either you give it credit to be able to make decisions and then it might backfire, or it cannot make decision and it becomes useless for OP purposes (there was another place where he explained what he wanted to do with a bit more details) of replicating someone else. It will sound fake because it IS fake in the worst way: It cannot learn.

Besides, if creating a second simulacrum is going to always blow up in the creator's face, wouldn't it be more straight-forward to just rule that a simulacrum cannot have its own simulacrum? I'd rather that the base assumptions of the game are clear from the get-go, rather than building a gotcha into the spell.

Considering that the Simulacrum chain is a "gotcha" in itself? Because the Gotcha was not accounted for in development and if it was the wording would have been different. As is it has been left in there intentionally instead of having been errataed so that the DM (and not the players) have the final say on where things will go if someone attempts it. And you are not creating a second simulacrum. You are having a simulacrum create a simulacrum trying to bypass the rule that explicilty states that a creature can only have a simulacrum. So no, i do not feel bad at all at making something "blow up in the face" of someone that asked if something would work. For me, it does not and this are the reasons. People i play with i ask/make known how i feel about it BEFOREHAND or AS SOON AS SOMETHING UNEXPECTED CROPS UP. We are going to have fun at the table, and fun is for everyone.

It's a "come with the most overpowered broken build you can have" game? Go for it. It's a "this is a serious campaign with my setting etc"? Deal with it (and know that you can't even be a sorcerer, yes there are reason for that, yes we can discuss about it but you are not going to have informations about why or what changes until you are sure you want to deal with it)
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
It obeys command and wishes. Being friendly it's something different. It's created to obey commands. It's compelled to do so. It cannot resist. Even if it still has memory and personality of the original creature. You can order a lion to strictly follow a vegetarian diet. It will NOT be happy, but it will do so.
Being friendly it's just that. Being friendly. Not going to harm, going to help if possible.

If your friend asks you to go to war in his place while he stays home comfortably, would you do it?

Sim2 knows that Sim1 is forced to be loyal to you since its the result of a spell that binds its original will (the one that Sim1, Sim2 and creator ALL SHARE) and until Sim1 designates creatures that Sim2 has to be friendly to (read the spell) or, as in the case, a chain of command is established, the only loyality that Sim2 is forced to enact on is to Sim1. No one else.

And that's why wizards or casters that try this trick are no longer around. Misconceptions on how loyality works.

You do not reach this stage. Sim2 on his own casts a spell to free Sim1 of his condition. Chain never established, chaos and death and destruction. Sim2 is under NO COMPULSION, NO FRIENDLINESS, NOTHING towards anyone but to the spellcaster and what it's memory and personality dictate.

BBEG in question: Usually loyality goes to himself OR evil superior power (that Sim2 is absolutely sure could serve better than Original and most likely Sim1, but Sim1 is the spellcaster, so i'm friendly and won't hurt him).

I did, just did not go into specifics since it just defeat the original purpose of having indipendent copies of someone going around. A machine lacking any form of free will has to be programmed, which means that no matter how much time you spend on it extremely complex tasks are outside of the scope of the machine itself. It would require sucha complex and intricate programming to even simulate an appareance of life that indipendant action is out of question.

That's no free will. Not even appereance thereof. There's also to say that free will ITSELF can be said to be unknown to us since in the end we move and act in reaction to stimuli. It will open doors on his own if asked to go an retrieve an object from the study. It would probably also close the doors behind itself if such is your preference automatically, since that's part of the memories and personality. Possibly it's going to act with some sort of intelligence if tasked to capture a fort on its own, this does not mean coming up with a PLAN to do so, but apply the "fireball to troll = good" part of the knowledges that it has. It's not going to spontaneously rule on it unless tasked to. It will not learn new ways. It cannot learn. it cannot adapt. Its going to be unfit to rule, since it cannot accomodate to change its perspective. It can only execute. Alexa "learns" from your preferences. A simulacrum cannot.

Either you give it credit to be able to make decisions and then it might backfire, or it cannot make decision and it becomes useless for OP purposes (there was another place where he explained what he wanted to do with a bit more details) of replicating someone else. It will sound fake because it IS fake in the worst way: It cannot learn.



Considering that the Simulacrum chain is a "gotcha" in itself? Because the Gotcha was not accounted for in development and if it was the wording would have been different. As is it has been left in there intentionally instead of having been errataed so that the DM (and not the players) have the final say on where things will go if someone attempts it. And you are not creating a second simulacrum. You are having a simulacrum create a simulacrum trying to bypass the rule that explicilty states that a creature can only have a simulacrum. So no, i do not feel bad at all at making something "blow up in the face" of someone that asked if something would work. For me, it does not and this are the reasons. People i play with i ask/make known how i feel about it BEFOREHAND or AS SOON AS SOMETHING UNEXPECTED CROPS UP. We are going to have fun at the table, and fun is for everyone.

It's a "come with the most overpowered broken build you can have" game? Go for it. It's a "this is a serious campaign with my setting etc"? Deal with it (and know that you can't even be a sorcerer, yes there are reason for that, yes we can discuss about it but you are not going to have informations about why or what changes until you are sure you want to deal with it)

I can't address every point because I have to run and do wedding planning stuff however...

Read the spell description for Simulacrum. It clearly states that the simulacrum is friendly to its creator, rather than acting under a compulsion.

Besides, in my edit (which I'm guessing you didn't see) I addressed a solution to the second sim going rogue. Command its creator to immediately command it to "Stop". It's not going to be able to cast Wish faster than a one syllable command.

The Sim chain isn't a "gotcha", it's an exploit. Some people would probably argue that it's being "clever" rather than exploitative, though I wouldn't agree. It's far too obvious to fall into the category of cleverness, as far as I'm concerned.

Like I said, I won't allow Sim chain IMC. I've made it very clear in my rules wiki that a simulacrum counts as "yourself". Therefore if your simulacrum creates its own simulacrum, it destroys itself (because it counts as you casting Simulacrum again). If your simulacrum casts Wish for something other than duplicating a spell below 9th level, there is a 33% chance that you will never be able to cast Wish again. I don't consider it a house rule so much as a ruling, since the rules don't say one way or the other on the matter. While my regular players would never pull something like this (they understand the concept of "mutually assured destruction") we do have new players rotate in from time to time (in fact, we should be getting 2 or 3 new guys next week).

If I state it clearly up front, then there can be no hard feelings since I've made my stance clear from the get-go.

If I were to simply build a "gotcha" into the spell, then the player might be upset when it is discovered (if it's a surprise), or the player might find a workaround (as I did, above). I don't want to leave room for a workaround, and I certainly don't want to upset my players, hence I think my solution is the better option (for me at least).
 

ThePolarBear

First Post
I can't address every point because I have to run and do wedding planning stuff however...

Read the spell description for Simulacrum. It clearly states that the simulacrum is friendly to its creator, rather than acting under a compulsion.

It also says that it must obey any wish from his creator. And that personality and memories are the one of the creature thatis being taken as model for the simulacrum. Even if the model hated you and just wanted to see you dead, the spell makes that the "memories" and "personality" are after the forced "friend" and "obey". It IS a compulsion. The spell is not a compulsion spell. The creature created is still compelled to act differently on how the original would otherwise act. Always assuming a form of free will. If that's not part of the spell i repeat, there's no problem but management would be a nightmare.

Besides, in my edit (which I'm guessing you didn't see) I addressed a solution to the second sim going rogue. Command its creator to immediately command it to "Stop". It's not going to be able to cast Wish faster than a one syllable command.
Fair. I did not see the edit. But it actually needed time and different discussions to even consider it a possibility. That in itself is a problem, something that's an afterthought on "crap i screwed up and someone make me notice about it".
I get it that (at least i ) clearly do not have 20 int as the BBEG would. And to be even fairer there's the point to make about a duplicate still having only half the HP of the original and less spells would probably have an hard time actually "beating" the original to supplant him.
It's still a point to consider when looking for a "raw" way of creating a "me" army.

Crap, it would be easier to, instead of going roundabout with true polimorph, exploit the whole thing with the BBEG creating clones on clones of himself via wish, then create a simulacrum the normal way and have it cast wish to infuse all the clones with life and spells of servitude. Wish can totally do everything a DM allows. It could have been seen as "horcruxifying" itself with multiples bodies all sharing the same soul as a "drawback" of the misuse of wish.

The Sim chain isn't a "gotcha", it's an exploit.
Yeah. It becomes a gotcha the moment a player tries to sneak it in to a DM that's unaware of the exploit

Like I said, I won't allow Sim chain IMC
Not thinking that you would. I just think that the observation i made were not in any way being made moot by your replies. The edit however does make sense and does plug the problem i raised (at least for me) and was offering the OP another way to look at it still perfectly withing the realm of the rules. Personally i do not even HAVE the problem with the group i DM.

I've made it very clear in my rules wiki that a simulacrum counts as "yourself". Therefore if your simulacrum creates its own simulacrum, it destroys itself (because it counts as you casting Simulacrum again). If your simulacrum casts Wish for something other than duplicating a spell below 9th level, there is a 33% chance that you will never be able to cast Wish again. I don't consider it a house rule so much as a ruling, since the rules don't say one way or the other on the matter. While my regular players would never pull something like this (they understand the concept of "mutually assured destruction") we do have new players rotate in from time to time (in fact, we should be getting 2 or 3 new guys next week).

Simulacrum in my "world" is the reason why sorcerors do not exist anymore. Long story short: Sorceror used to be present. BBEG sorceror went a little bit too far, gained way to Simulacrum, chained, pretty much "won the game", wrinkle in the plan, Simulacra going wild since not really simulacra anymore, BBEG not with us anymore, lots of wishes to fix things and prevent other abuses of such power. Including "sorcerors are stupid, let's get rid of them". Sorry for the TL;DR, but it's a loooong backstory.

If I state it clearly up front, then there can be no hard feelings since I've made my stance clear from the get-go.
I agree.

If I were to simply build a "gotcha" into the spell, then the player might be upset when it is discovered (if it's a surprise), or the player might find a workaround (as I did, above). I don't want to leave room for a workaround, and I certainly don't want to upset my players, hence I think my solution is the better option (for me at least).

I agree. Thematically in the game i'm running however its better to leave it open as it's... well... part of the "known" history. Known in brackets, since it's not THAT known.
 

Granted, as [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION] pointed out, since the later generations have merely been commanded to obey the original, you might be able to "hack" them using Disguise Self. But this is a 20 intelligence wizard, so he's probably thought of that. This is easily solved by adding a passcode to their "programming". To make it difficult to hack, simply base it on an equation (not unlike modern day authenticators).

This merely raises the bar on the difficulty of hacking--it doesn't change how disastrous it is for your botnet to get hacked. (It can also get hacked via spells like Dominate Person/Monster or Mass Suggestion, which "rootkit" a given Simulacrum, allowing you to command it to change its orders to its simulacra.)

Simulacrum chaining is the D&D equivalent of Grey Goo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo said:
Grey goo (also spelled gray goo) is a hypothetical end-of-the-world scenario involving molecular nanotechnology in which out-of-control self-replicating robots consume all matter on Earth while building more of themselves,[1][2] a scenario that has been called ecophagy ("eating the environment", more literally "eating the habitation").[3] The original idea assumed machines were designed to have this capability, while popularizations have assumed that machines might somehow gain this capability by accident.

Creating your own Simulacrum network gives you vast power for as long as you control them, but also enormous vulnerabilities. The smart thing to do with them is, if you have something that actually needs ten thousand wizards (e.g. creating a Staff of the Magi in a single day), create them on the fly and then have them self-destruct afterwards. Do not leave an enormous network of loosely-controlled wizardbots lying around for somebody to hack. (Furthermore, as we see from posters like The Polar Bear, some DMs will interpret simulacra as having free will, which gives another, internal attack vector as well.) No matter how good you think your authentication is, there's really no upside for you in having so many.

It might make sense to make a handful of Simulacra (via chaining, if your DM is using RAW on Simulacra--I don't). Maybe you make one to show your mother-in-law around the countryside (important: only works if the Simulacrum is good enough at pretending to be you to actually fool her--then again, she's not your mother so maybe it has advantage on checks) and another to do your spell research.

ObCalvin: http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1990/01/11
Calvin.gif
 

Now, the DM could of course decide that the reason no one's doing this is because it always goes out of control and ends badly (the dangers of playing with powers you don't fully comprehend), but it wouldn't be RAW.

IMO, the best way to run Simulacrum is to just overrule RAW right off the bat: Simulacrum produces a copy which, like AD&D Simulacrum, lacks volition and initiative and is a pale imitation of the original, possessing only a fraction of the original's abilities (40%-65% was the original rule) and none of its memories. It's for producing a sickly and noticeably odd version of the king whom you actually have imprisoned in your basement, not for producing a full-strength perfect-copy-in-every-way-except-for-not-healing-naturally version of the king who happens to be the slave of your every whim.

In exchange for the reduced power, you can drop some of the limitations, e.g. drop the "only humanoids" limitation and drop "can only have one Simulacrum at a time." If you want to invest in an army of 9th-11th-ish level robo-clones of yourself at 1500 gp a pop (or a Wish) and a day's worth of effort, go right ahead! That's classic evil wizard stuff right there, and not much different from Gating and Planar Binding up an army of Mariliths.

The DM taketh away and the DM giveth. Blessed be the name of the DM.
 




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