Try it in your game? Remove caster level.

[Umbran]

I mean if you want to have an actual conversation about this, let's have it... but save the ridiculously short sighted assumptions about the class.

If you desire an actual conversation, perhaps you would care to back up your statements with evidence rather than by flailing about verbally?

Folks,

The tone that's coming across here is increasingly hostile, disrespectful, and personal. I'm going to have to ask you to change your approaches to each other, or to simply stop responding to each other, before it gets to the point where I'm called upon to boot one, the other, or both of you for slipping into hefty rudeness.

 

[kitcik]

A non-MAD monk must choose between low AC and low damage, a choice the fighter does not need to make. The monk also has worse BAB. He's got some skills, but he can't use his social skills without Cha and he can't use his sneaky skills without Dex.

He's like the jackoff-of-all-trades. He serves no useful purpose.

And I LIKE monks - I am playing a 10th level one now. Non-psionic Thri-Kreen with LA buyoff and 1 of the 2 monstrous HD waived - that helped with MAD since they get bonuses in Str Dex & Wis. He rocked in the low levels, but now is a one-trick pony: glass cannon.

And I suck down resources like a demon - I get more buffs than anyone.

It's still fun b/c my jump skill is like +80. I have twisted charge and, with a warblade dip, sudden leap - so I am like Ricochet Rabbit. Bing, Bing Bing!

But, when there's a need for anything besides damage, I pretty much stand around (or jump around) feeling less than useful.

Luckily, our DM is good at creating situations for everyone to shine and my party members are nice about not stepping on toes.

Seriously, man, the monk doesn't meet any of the common sense meanings of "balanced" in a game sense. They are not balanced against the other classes and they are not balanced against CR appropriate monsters (you should re-read [MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION] 's post - he listed ALL CR appropriate monsters in core).

They also do not have level-appropriate skills for a skill monkey so they are not balanced against non-combat encounters either.

As I said in a prior post, the one thing they can do is be the tough-to-hit annoyance that all the bad guys describe as "save him for last, he sucks anyway."

 

[kitcik]

(I'm not sure which direction I'd take this monk - I've never played one.)

That pretty much says it all.

You ask what the monk does so well and I've told you again and again he consumes fewer resources than other party members. That's how he plays a support character, that is his virtue.

That good sir, is undoubtedly a vital role in any campaign.

That is not a vital role. It is a non-role. It is the role I described above. The guy who gets targeted last b/c he's hard to hit but he's not a threat. It's the role of watching someone outshine you in everything you try to do.

I suggest you play one before you conclude they are "balanced."

 

[Dandu]

For the fun of it I'll try:

28 point buy: Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
At level 12: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8

I'm going to use only ~ the gold you used on AC and ability items and ignore the boots. (I'm not sure which direction I'd take this monk - I've never played one.)

Bracers of Armor +4 (16k)
Ring of Protection +2 (8k)
Ioun Stone (5k)
Gloves of Dex +4 (16k)
Periapt of Wis +4 (16k)

AC 29 (equal)
Touch 25 (11 more)
F-F 23 (5 less)

The monk will have 37 hp less on average (13 from hit die, 24 from Con), but has 24 hp worth Wholeness of Body. He'll hopefully take less damage due to better saves + Improved Evasion and other class features.

I'm not saying the monk will be the fighter's equal as a tank, but I don't think he'll be quite as hopeless as you seem to suggest.

Here is the issue I see: there is no reason to attack the monk. His attack bonus is +15 assuming Weapon Finesse, but with unarmed damage in the area of 2d6+2 damage, he deals 9 damage per hit on average. This is less damage per hit than a first level fighter with a great sword. It is insufficient at level 12 against opponents with DR, boatloads of HP, and high AC. Completely and utterly. Enemies are free to simply walk around you and engage other party members, which means that all you ultimately do is provide flanking.

That is not a vital role. It is a non-role. It is the role I described above. The guy who gets targeted last b/c he's hard to hit but he's not a threat. It's the role of watching someone outshine you in everything you try to do.

I suggest you play one before you conclude they are "balanced."

Just to be clear, you are addressing Visigani and not the other guy, who seems to be having trouble with the forum's quote function?

Folks,

The tone that's coming across here is increasingly hostile, disrespectful, and personal. I'm going to have to ask you to change your approaches to each other, or to simply stop responding to each other, before it gets to the point where I'm called upon to boot one, the other, or both of you for slipping into hefty rudeness.

Apologies.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Let's be kind and assume if he had listed feats, Imp. Natural Attack would be in there, since every monk should have that. So an extra 3.5 damage per hit. Still pretty ineffectual.

 

[Dandu]

11.5 damage is still about what you'd expect from a level 1 fighter...

2d6+6 assuming 18 Str and a greatsword. That's an average of 13 per hit.

Edit: Let's pull out some monsters!

Air Elemental, Elder - 204 HP. AC 27. AB of +27, 2d8+6 damage per attack, 2 slams in a full round attack. DR 10/-, whirlwind form, air mastery, elemental traits.

I'm at a loss as to what Hassassin's monk would do against that. Can't stun it, can't damage it... Perhaps he could hurt its feelings by using mean words?

Black Dragon, Adult - 199 HP. AC 27. AB of +24, with lots of natural attacks.

Blue Dragon, Young adult - 189 HP. AC 26. AB of +23, with lots of natural attacks.

Copper Dragon, Young adult - 161 HP. AC 25. AB of +20, with lots of natural attacks.

Cryohydra, Ten-Headed - 108 HP. AC 20. AB of +14, 1d10+5 damage per attack, 10 attack per round. Fast healing 20, darkvision 60 ft, low light vision, scent.

Pyrohydra, Ten-Headed - same as above.

Hydra, Twelve-Headed - 129 HP. AC 22. AB of +17, 2d8+6 damage per attack, 12 attacks per round. Fast healing 22, darkvision 60 ft, low light vision, scent.

Demon, Hezrou - 138 HP. AC 23. AB of +14, bite deals 4d4+5 damage, two claws with an AB of +9 deal 1d8+2 damage each. DR 10/good, has Blasphemy as a spell like ability 3/day at CL 13.

Devil, Barbed (Hamatula) - 126 HP. AC 29. AB 18, 2d6+6 damage each, 2 attacks on a full attack. DR 10/good, barbed defense (enemies striking a barbed devil without a reach weapon take 1d8+6 points of piercing damage).

Feel free to look through the rest of that list, Hassassin this is just the top 1/3rd.

 

[Tovec]

Doesn't address the other fundamental issue, which is that nerfing the overpowered classes does nothing to help the underpowered ones. Now, instead of half the team rocking the face off of a Balor while the other half stands on the sidelines uselessly, you have an entire party who can't do squat.

It's a BALOR, that's how it should be. A 12th level nerd with a nice spell and handy feats shouldn't be able to take down a REALLY evil baddy solo.

I can easily imagine that spell-caster PCs will start to rely more on scrolls and other consumable items. As their lower-level spell slots are nerfed down, they need some other things to complement.

So, like the fighter or other melee people they'll have to spend money on their equipment and have to plan more than a nights rest ahead of taking down the next great evil?

By the way, if you tries to use Monk as the measurement for game-balance, why are you trying to nerf down spellcasters only? Monk is widely considered to be one of the weakest class. So, you should better nerf down almost all the other classes, too.

It's hard to argue with this. Monks are weak compared to most any other class.

I don't agree that they're "balanced". In fact monks have too many "grab-bag" abilities whereas the fighter can get feats to up his AC, damage, attack, limited enemy control. A barbarian can do so as well, but less with feats and more his rage which is an immediate boost.
I think it would have been a better idea to not reduce wizard down to monk but to maybe bring it more in line with fighter. Especially when you think how much people seem to fight over every little thing when it comes to monks. The problem isn't capping fireball or similar spells. The problem is that wizards have too many options. This rule change doesn't seem to address it but I do appreciate the effort to reduce casters to a non-caster level as opposed to buffing everything up to try and fill the gap in the other direction.

 

[Dandu]

It's a BALOR, that's how it should be. A 12th level nerd with a nice spell and handy feats shouldn't be able to take down a REALLY evil baddy solo.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UfAL9f74I[/ame][ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmDuG_NkgaQ"][/ame]

 

[Tovec]

YOU SHALL NOT PASS - YouTube

Gandalf was a wizard, yes, but he was also an "angel" and of the same level/type as the Balrog. He was significantly higher than the rest of the party he was in, only in these cases did it make sense for him to fight it solo. Plus, Gandalf died in the process, how many DnD wizards would have in the same place?

ps. I only realized when you quoted me that I apparently missed a couple pages of replies and shall endeavor to read them now.

 

[Dandu]

Gandalf was a wizard, yes, but he was also an "angel" and of the same level/type as the Balrog. He was significantly higher than the rest of the party he was in, only in these cases did it make sense for him to fight it solo. Plus, Gandalf died in the process, how many DnD wizards would have in the same place?

How many D&D wizards would be taking on a Balor at character level 12 in the first place, seeing as it is a CR 20 monster?

You're supposed to fight Balors and win when you're around level 20. This is how the game should be. If you want your Balors to be a super evil bad guy that challenges the players, throw him at the party when they're significantly below level 20. Although that will probably result in a Blasphemy related TPK.