(Trying Not To Start A Rant) The Other Side of the Christian/DnD Thing

[Dr. Harry]

That's it. You've stepped over the line!

Aaaaiiiieeee!!! (ducks)

(sticks head up)

Actually, I think Jeffrey Sinclair was the best commander.

(ducks again - really, really quickly)

 

[MerakSpielman]

I know several fellow pagan D&D players, and I can honestly say, for the record, that I have never seen D&D "lead" anybody into wicca or paganism or anything else remotely resembling what Jack Chick describes. My religious life and my hobby life are separate entities, as is the case, I believe, for everybody else here, regardless of their religion.

The main thing I've seen D&D teach people is better math skills.

 

[Barak]

A weird thing is that, in my view, one of the reasons it's more of the problem in the US is because here (yeah I'm a transplanted canadian, so when I say "here" i mean the US) the separation of church and state is spelled out. So when the subject is brought up, uproar happens. In most other countries, there -is- a separation of church and state, but it's an unwritten rule. So no one feels the need to try and "buck the system" by bringing it up.

That's my non-sociologist opinion, anyway.

Oh and I mostly frequent a D&D board where politics and religion is allowed to be discussed (the aforementioned Silver Ennie Winner), and we're pretty darn civil too. Of course, our user base is around 4000, so compared to EnWorld it's smaller, which may explain things.

 

[Kai Lord]

Ok, now a couple of gaming and religion stories here while I can get away with it ...

1) My dad's a pastor. He never really had a problem with D&D overall since two of his kids played, but he did lay down one rule: we couldn't pretend to worship the fictional gods. So the clerics were all "generic" with no deities.

Heh. I actually adhere to that one myself. To me D&D is basically an extreme sport (seriously). Not inherently evil, but dangerous if you aren't careful.

The four base classes all represent something I believe to be morally wrong:

Fighters (Killing)
Rogues (Lying/Stealing)
Wizards (Sorcery)
Clerics (Worshipping false gods)

And these are the roles that we indulge ourselves in. In all honesty I can't call that a good thing, without significant tweaks, such as playing Warriors who only battle evil races such as orcs or demons, Rogues who do other "roguely" things instead of lying and stealing, etc. It gets even harder with the magic-using classes.

Fantasy that serves as Christian allegory like Narnia and to a lesser extent LOTR is basically what I strive for.

 

[aurance]

One is that gamers are a subculture, and subcultures pride themselves on being different, sometimes to the point of automatic rejection of anything 'mainstream' or 'normal'.

None of the gamers I know really pride themselves on being different. We all just play a game we happen to enjoy.

I really don't think gamers in general have any special rejection of mainstream stuff.

 

[Belegbeth]

Knee-jerk or mean-spirited bashing of anyone's religious views is inappropriate and, if anything, counterproductive. (And I apologize for my earlier sarcastic remarks -- my intent was levity.)

If Christians perceive their views to be unfairly attacked on gaming boards (or elsewhere), that is unfortunate.

On the other hand, though, I do NOT think that all criticism of religious views is disrespectful and/or intolerant. Religions make claims about reality, morality, etc. There are many very good reasons to doubt the soundness of many/most/all of those claims. But such claims CAN be challenged in a rational and respectful manner. To claim that any argument or challenge to one's religious views is necessarily disrespectful or intolerant is simply NOT correct. (I am not claiming that people on these boards are reacting in this way. Rather, it is a response I encounter among religious people far too often -- far more often than any negative response I encounter from playing RPG's.)

Bashing another's views will never get that person to change their mind. But rational discourse can lead to more justified beliefs. And rational discourse, for it to succeed, must proceed on the basis of tolerance and mutual respect. I do not think someone else is being 'intolerant' towards me when she challenges my nontheism with reasoned arguments.

Finally, by way of autobiography, I used to be a devout Christian and role-player (during the early-mid 1980's, at the height of the anti-DnD craze). I encountered SOME grief from Christians because of my role-playing activities. But I encountered far MORE grief when I asked skeptical questions about many core Christian doctrines (and I belonged to a moderately liberal church). Experiences like these, combined with the Jack Chick and 700 Club madness of the 1980s, are likely the main culprits behind any bias against Christians that might exist among certain groups of gamers. Maybe ... just speculating on this point.

[P.S. In an earlier post I referred to Mackie's "problem of evil" argument against the existence of God. John Mackie was a 20th century Oxford philosopher who advanced a deductive argument against the possibility that the traditional conception of God could exist. Mackie's argument has been hugely influential in analytical philosophy of religion. A philosopher at Notre Dame, Alvin Plantiga, has attempted to respond to Mackie's argument in recent years. It is an interesting response, but ultimately unsuccessful, in my view. Okay, sorry for the philosophy lesson, but someone asked me about this comment in an earlier post...]

 

[Saeviomagy]

And let's not even get into the hostility and ignorance you get if you're a member of a different religion. If I get one more person asking me why I'm not allowed to wear 50/50 poly/cotton T-shirts, I'm gonna brain somebody with my dice bag.

1) That doesn't sound hostile
2) It's only ignorance if they studiously avoid asking the question, or don't listen to the answer
3) Why aren't you? I don't want to be ignorant of your religion, so I have to ask.

 

[Pseudonym]

I know several fellow pagan D&D players, and I can honestly say, for the record, that I have never seen D&D "lead" anybody into wicca or paganism or anything else remotely resembling what Jack Chick describes.

D&D may not lead people to Paganism, but I've seen plenty of people who's Paganism is influenced by D&D, and especially the various White Wolf titles. I swear if I meet another person claiming to be an elf or a vampire at the next open circle I go to I'm going to snap.

 

[Hardhead]

1) That doesn't sound hostile
2) It's only ignorance if they studiously avoid asking the question, or don't listen to the answer
3) Why aren't you? I don't want to be ignorant of your religion, so I have to ask.

I'm guessing orthodox jew. Leviticus 19:19 states:

"You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

As an atheist in North Carolina, I'm forced to know a good bit of obscure Bible trivia.

 

[Hardhead]

D&D may not lead people to Paganism, but I've seen plenty of people who's Paganism is influenced by D&D, and especially the various White Wolf titles. I swear if I meet another person claiming to be an elf or a vampire at the next open circle I go to I'm going to snap.

By the way, I strongly believe that D&D does, sometimes lead to paganism. Around were I live, in rural NC, Christianity is pretty much It, as far as religions go, and you'd be surprised by how many people are religious. There are, quite literally, over sixty churches in the Cherryville area, a town with a population of about 4500. There are exactly 0 places of worship for others. You'd be amazed at how deeply religion runs through the veins of the city.

Two of our players come from deeply conservative religious familys. One, quite literally, had his RPG books burned by his family when they were discovered by his parents as a teen. He's in his 30s now with kids of his own, and his father regularly tells him that he's going to Hell. It's almost too stereotypical to be believed, but it's true. This guy ended up pagan (before giving up on that religion too, and becoming agnostic). He was raised as a Bible-thumper, but the D&D books opened up not only the idea of another religion being true, but opened the door on meeting the many non-Christians that are a part of the hobby. His "fall" from Christianity is directly linked to his playing of D&D.

I'm not saying that everyone that plays D&D becomes pagan. I'm certainly not (but them, I'm atheist), but I do believe it has been a "first step" for some.