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(Trying Not To Start A Rant) The Other Side of the Christian/DnD Thing

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TracerBullet42

First Post
Lord Pendragon said:
Reading this thread, it's hard to decide what to take away from it. There are non-Christians claiming they've felt prejudice from Christians, and now many Christians claiming that it's the (assumed) non-Christian gamers who are more prejudiced. In the latter half of this thread, there seems to be a lot of finger pointing.

On the contrary, I think what this thread shows is that most of us have, only on rare occasions, run into these predjudices. Most of what I have read has been, "Well, they said I was a geek for playing D&D" or "They picked on my religion a bit." And that's not so bad...

And it's only been a few instances, from what I've read. I think THAT is the most interesting fact that I've picked up from this thread. It's not that gamers pick on christians, or that christians pick on gamers...rather the fact that there is a nice level of understanding from each group that matters.
 

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DMScott

First Post
Dark Jezter said:
If I mention I'm a D&D player to any of the christians I know, the worst I'd probably get would be "But isn't that game only played by geeks?"

I think a couple of important points here are (1) you're talking to people you know, and (2) you are a christian, and they know that, too. My experience is people are likely to think better of D&D if they know someone who plays and share some kind of connection with them.

To look at it from a different angle: About the only circumstances under which I interact with a stranger to the point that I learn they're christian is when they're trying to convert me. I've noticed that one tactic during such conversion attempts is to tell me the other things I'm doing "wrong", so D&D will likely be treated negatively. Conversely, when I respond I may well (depending on my mood) unload with some criticisms of Christianity. OTOH, my christian friends usually don't have any trouble with D&D, and I have no trouble at all with their faith. So context is important.

There's also likely an old fogey factor. I haven't seen a game store pull their D&D stock due to pressure from a religious group in quite a while, but it did happen when I was growing up in the 80s and at the time it was pretty scary. People who haven't seen that sort of thing - haven't seen teachers and guidance counsellors misled into banning D&D at a school, or haven't had to justify their hobby in the face of anonymously sent Chick pamphlets or BADD reports - probably don't feel it's a big deal. People who have seen it are probably affected differently.
 

Silver Moon

Adventurer
Wow, great discussion. I am very impressed. I'll chime in here that my father is an ordained Baptist minister and he has never had any problems with my brother and I being gamers. In fact, four members of my gaming group have very strong Christian religious faiths.

On the other hand, I've also had some very negative reactions from the "D&D is evil" types. I want to keep this a postive thread, so won't go into detail here but will provide a link to a thread on sister board where I initiated that discussion. http://www.randomlingshouse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=538 (please reply to comments made in that thread there rather than here)

Personally, I've always tried to keep my religion and gaming separate, which is part of why I did our Western campaign as a D&D hybrid, using the D&D panthions rather than Christianity as the religion in that game.
 

Angcuru

First Post
DMScott said:
About the only circumstances under which I interact with a stranger to the point that I learn they're christian is when they're trying to convert me. I've noticed that one tactic during such conversion attempts is to tell me the other things I'm doing "wrong", so D&D will likely be treated negatively.
I've had this experience as well (kinda). I knew a couple (5 or so) die-hard Christians back in high school, all whom knew I played D&D (or at least held an interest in it). Only one of them took offense, and that's most likely because she had several abusive boyfriends in the past, all of whom played the game. I asked, and she said that he opinion of the game had nothing to do with her religious faith, but rather that she concluded (by some manner of logic) that D&D turns good guys into abusive guys (which is of course false). She said that she was worried that I was going to turn into an evil woman-beater as well. After being assured by myself and everyone around her (while I wasn't exactly popular, I was well known to be a nice guy) that I was not, and an explanation of how all her ex-boyfriends were instead weak-minded 'playas', she changed her opinion about the game. And that was the only anti-D&D sentiment that I have ever personally experienced. :)

Now that I've related this little anecdote, on to my view of the subject at hand.

A bit of biography just because: I was raised by a conservative christian mother and an logic-minded agnostic father (Go figure, right?). Of course, since when a man gets married he looses his ability to have an opinion (in most cases), I was raised christian. Was Christian until approximately age 12, when I (as I prefer to say) "Started thinking for myself." and decided that religion is not for me, and I'm now Agnostic.

ANYway, one summer we were over at my maternal Grandfather's house in Ohio for a family reunion. Now, my grandfather is just about the most religious man you will ever meet, though he isn't a fanatic. He was sitting there on the couch watching his Three Stooges videos and chuckling like no tomorrow. I'm sitting on a couch on the other side of the TV reading through my 2nd edition Player's Handbook, and my granddad takes a look over and notices the book. Doesn't bat an eyelash. Actually asks me if he can take a look at it. As it turns out, he was interested in how the game had changed over the years, since his youngest daughter (my aunt Jackie) used to play when she was a kid, and he had read through the OD&D rules a few times to clarify a few things for her. Then he did this hilarious Jack Chick impression which had me on the floor laughing. Y'see, he can have really neat evil eye thing going on when he wants to and...well...you get the point. :p

I guess my point is that a religion is a religion is a religion. The tennents of the faith apply to how you live your life and various other things (varies from faith to faith). And while Christian policy doesn't exactly have the best track record for tolerance (see: Crusades, Witch Burnings, The Spanish Inquisition, etc.), one would do well to acknowledge that it is the few, the powerful, the Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope who create and implemented these policies. Jack Chick simply took an enormously skewed opinion of D&D, decided to spread it, and found an outlet in the largest religious group America: Christians. As Americans scare easily, and the majority take religion seriously, this idea of D&D = EVIL BAD BAD NASTINESS took hold in a small minority of Christians, and since most who took this view were fanatics in the first place, this opinon had a loud voice, and got a lot of publicity.

Thus was the myth/legend/idea/image/thingy of the Anti-D&D Christian born.
 
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mythago

Hero
Saeviomagy said:
1) That doesn't sound hostile
2) It's only ignorance if they studiously avoid asking the question, or don't listen to the answer
3) Why aren't you? I don't want to be ignorant of your religion, so I have to ask.
Depends on how it's asked. When it's got that tone of "don't tell me you actually DO something that silly," then yes, it can be hostile.

Total side note, the Leviticus quote prohibits wearing linen and wool together (shaatnez)--not 50/50 T-shirts. :)

I have to say that bad attitude is largely something I encounter in groups of immature* gamers, not gaming as a whole. There are Christians of different faiths, Jews, atheists, pagans, and agnostics in the gaming circles I move in, and nobody sneers at anyone else's beliefs (or lack thereof).



*please note that this does not necessarily mean young gamers
 

Hardhead

Explorer
mythago said:
Total side note, the Leviticus quote prohibits wearing linen and wool together (shaatnez)--not 50/50 T-shirts. :)

No, it prohibits any two different kinds of cloth. The King James Version says:

King James said:
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

However, almost all modern translations (excpet those like 21st Century King James and the like, which really aren't modern translations, anyway) render it more correctly.

New International Version (pretty much the new standard) said:
" 'Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

New Revised Standard Vision (the other major modern translation) said:
You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your animals breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall you put on a garment made of two different materials.

New American Standard Bible (a fairly literal Bible said:
'You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.

MSG (bit looser translation said:
"Keep my decrees.
"Don't mate two different kinds of animals.
"Don't plant your fields with two kinds of seed.
"Don't wear clothes woven of two kinds of material.

New Literal Translation (name says it all) said:
"You must obey all my laws.
"Do not breed your cattle with other kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven from two different kinds of fabric.

If you're a Christian, though, don't feel bad about wearing your 50/50 poly/cotton blend shirts. The general belief is that Jesus repealed the old Leviticus laws, even those he didn't specifically repeal (like the unclean food statutes).
 
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Angcuru

First Post
Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
I always wondered why Western Europe took so long to catch on to crop rotation. I guess this explains it. :)
 
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DM_Matt

First Post
Belegbeth said:
These are bad things? Okay, guns suck.

Seriously, Mackie showed all this "god-belief" stuff is unjustified. Seriously *sigh* Nobody listens. "Kids these days..."
;)

I hereby match you inappropriate Mackie reference (and if you think he invented theodocy, you need a history lesson) with an equally inappropriate statement that Mackie argument is refutable. I tutor a class at my universityregarding proofs and faith.

Barak said:
It's weird that the US is the place where it's really the most "controversial". Prolly 'cause it's the place where it's also the most popular. Heck, back in Montreal, I, for a short period of time, played in a Sabbat Live-Action game (can you get more weird and evil then that with any RPGs?) in the basement of a church, that had the priest's full knowledge and approval.

No, there is more religious opposition to DND in the United States beucase the United States is vastly more religious than any other industrialized nation. By any measure of religiousity, the rest of the industrialized world isn't even close.


To the mixing thing:
1. It really is about wool and linen. The priestly garments were made of wool and linen, and as such they were forbidden to commoners. Only Orthodox Jews still practice that one, but they practice the laws only intended to be the civil laws for Israelite society irrespective of origional purpose, as they do them out of feeling obligated to G-D. King James' men definately screwed up a lot, but the writers of the Mishna and the Talmud knew quite well what it said.
2. Note MINGLED seed. This isnt about crop rotation. This is about keeping different crops separate. It is known historically that it was never interpreted as demanding that any given farmer only own one crop.



Regarding my personal experiences: I am a Jew in the Conservative movement (which is sometihng of a misnomer, becuase it is in fact that centrist movement between Orthodox and Reform). My mother, who supplimented her beliefs with a good bit of Catholic social morality (much of which I accept as well), disapproved of DND, and our rabbi had a talk with her about how our religion has no problem with it.


NOW CAN WE PLEASE DISPENSE WITH THE RELIGIOUS DEBATE NOW BEFORE THIS THREAD GETS CLOSED.
 

Belegbeth

First Post
DM_Matt said:
I hereby match you inappropriate Mackie reference (and if you think he invented theodocy, you need a history lesson) with an equally inappropriate statement that Mackie argument is refutable. I tutor a class at my universityregarding proofs and faith.

Um, no I do not think he invented theodocy, and I do not need a history lesson (just finished teaching some stuff on Maimonides, Augustine, Aquinas, Al-Ghazali, Averroes, et al., at a certain Bay Area university ;) ...) I never claimed that Mackie's argument is irrefutable, though I have yet to encounter a convincing argument against it (Plantinga's argument is the strongest that I have encountered, but I find it unsuccessful).

In any case, my original comment was not meant to upset anyone; its tone was meant to be somewhat light-hearted. Obviously I failed (it *was* late at night).
 


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