TWF vs. archery rangers

[jasin]

Not everyone cares about numbers. Some just want to look cool with dual flashing blades or a spinning staff.

Saying that options don't need to be at least roughly equal because some people don't care about numbers just ends up punishing people who think they don't care about numbers. Such people will make a Str 11, Dex 17 rapier-wielding fighter or an even-split multiclassed rogue/cleric of Olidammara, because they like the concept and don't care that a greatsword fighter or a straight cleric would be more powerful. But quite soon they'll get frustrated by their character demonstrably being nowhere near as cool in the actual action of the game as it is in their head. At least that's been my experience.

(BTW, spinning staff doesn't work for rangers in 4E. )

 

[Sitara]

Well technically it can. They select quarterstaff and select TWF/TWD, weapon focus staff, etc feats and then make basic attacks with it (and use those few ranger powers than work with single weapons). As powerful as a pure twf 4e ranger? Nope. But still cool and can hold his own. Especially if they select fighter feats and start swapping powers and then select a fighter PP.

Also, you could house rule that quarterstaff works with twf.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

Saying that options don't need to be at least roughly equal because some people don't care about numbers just ends up punishing people who think they don't care about numbers. Such people will make a Str 11, Dex 17 rapier-wielding fighter or an even-split multiclassed rogue/cleric of Olidammara, because they like the concept and don't care that a greatsword fighter or a straight cleric would be more powerful. But quite soon they'll get frustrated by their character demonstrably being nowhere near as cool in the actual action of the game as it is in their head. At least that's been my experience.

It's never been an issue in games I've played in. The only issue I've ever had is with power gamers who break the game with their crap.

(BTW, spinning staff doesn't work for rangers in 4E. )

It does in my games.

 

[Khaim]

Also, you could house rule that quarterstaff works with twf.

You'd have to, 'cause otherwise that stuff doesn't work. At all.

 

[jasin]

It's never been an issue in games I've played in. The only issue I've ever had is with power gamers who break the game with their crap.

How do they do this? In my experience, the powergamers get themselves the largest numbers, which makes everyone else feel like their characters are overshadowed, but that's just me and the people I play with, who care about numbers.

It does in my games.

How come you made that house rule? If your players don't care about numbers, couldn't they just their basic attacks and imagine it as looking very cool, with spinning and everything? Since they won't be using many of the ranger powers, their numbers will be crap compared to a two sword ranger or even a fighter, but they don't care about that, so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

How do they do this? In my experience, the powergamers get themselves the largest numbers, which makes everyone else feel like their characters are overshadowed, but that's just me and the people I play with, who care about numbers.

If it's just one power gamer, they tear through encounters with ease that would challenge the party otherwise. The DM either has to up the ante. This makes the difference between the power gamer and the others even greater, which only ruins the game further. In turn the dm has to kick the power gamer out if they won't play nice or the rest of the group has to start power gaming, even if they don't like it.

How come you made that house rule? If your players don't care about numbers, couldn't they just their basic attacks and imagine it as looking very cool, with spinning and everything? Since they won't be using many of the ranger powers, their numbers will be crap compared to a two sword ranger or even a fighter, but they don't care about that, so it shouldn't be a problem.

The house rule, which I haven't typed up yet, will add the Double Weapon trait to a variety of weapons. Weapons with the Double Weapon trait count as two melee weapons for purposes of TWF/TWD and ranger abilities.

As for why? Because it's cool looking.

 

[Sitara]

You'd have to, 'cause otherwise that stuff doesn't work. At all.

Its quite viable to play a staff weilder. Take a pure fighter for example who chooses the staff a 2H weapon and then selects powers based off that.

Sure, a fighter with the overpowered greataxe, or the GS will do somewhat more damage over all, but the staff fighter is certainly viable.

You could also select wizard training feats, and use the staff as an implement (getting a +2 bonus to AC! atop everything else)

 

[Aria Silverhands]

Besides, in the Wheel of Time series, stave wielders were able to defeat even blademasters.

 

[jasin]

Its quite viable to play a staff weilder. Take a pure fighter for example who chooses the staff a 2H weapon and then selects powers based off that.

He'll be much better than a ranger. Which was quite the point of what was said: staff is a crappy weapon for the 4E PHB ranger, since it's neither a ranged weapon, nor is it two weapons.

 

[jasin]

If it's just one power gamer, they tear through encounters with ease that would challenge the party otherwise. The DM either has to up the ante. This makes the difference between the power gamer and the others even greater, which only ruins the game further. In turn the dm has to kick the power gamer out if they won't play nice or the rest of the group has to start power gaming, even if they don't like it.

Why worry about it? It's just numbers, innit?

The house rule, which I haven't typed up yet, will add the Double Weapon trait to a variety of weapons. Weapons with the Double Weapon trait count as two melee weapons for purposes of TWF/TWD and ranger abilities.

As for why? Because it's cool looking.

It's equally cool looking if they're just using their crappy basic attack. Or do you care about the numbers that the ranger's two-weapon abilities will get you?