Two Interesting Magic Item Questions

[KarinsDad]

But you need the proper spell list or UMD to use a Spell Trigger item too... which is one of the categories you Should-Not-Everified above...

Actually, I was primarily talking about Wondrous Items since there are so many slots those can fit into.

I really do not have a problem with Spell Completion or Spell Trigger items. Those minimally force the character to take a level in the appropriate class or take UMD. It's not free (and many slot capable) like with Wondrous Items.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, I was primarily talking about Wondrous Items since there are so many slots those can fit into.

I really do not have a problem with Spell Completion or Spell Trigger items. Those minimally force the character to take a level in the appropriate class or take UMD. It's not free (and many slot capable) like with Wondrous Items.

I'm just talking about the fact that you said "Personal spells should never be placed in a Spell Trigger ... item. Ever."

If you don't have a problem with Spell Trigger items, it's confusing to the reader when you include them in your original list of items you have a problem with

Okay, so the Ring of Blinking is an exception to the never-ever rule because it's a ring, the Carpet of Flying is an exception because in 3E it was based on a non-personal spell, the Hand of Glory is an exception because there's a typo in the prerequisites.

Hat of Disguise?

Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic?

Boots of Striding and Springing?

-Hyp.

 

[Piratecat]

I've got no problem whatsoever with personal spells placed into items. I think they're dandy. Goodness knows that having such things hasn't even come close to breaking my game.

If you want a quick and dirty way to make the belt buckle intelligent (with no other real advantages or special powers, other than activating the shield spell itself and giving it a fun personality) price the belt buckle as if it were a quickened shield spell instead of a normal shield spell. Same effect, all things considered, plus you have a fun new NPC.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hat of Disguise?

Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic?

Boots of Striding and Springing?

Yup.

All of these items should not exist in their current incarnations. Why is it ok for a Wondrous Item, but not ok for a Potion? The problem is one of assigning sacred cow spells to sacred cow items, regardless of the power or utility of the spell.


How many characters try to get Boots of Striding and Springing? A lot. These have an extremely high utility in the game.

Helm of Comprehend Languages negates the entire need for PCs to take languages.

Hat of Disguise is ridiculously low priced and minimizes the need for the Disguise skill.


Quite frankly, I think the Designers screwed up a lot with magic item creation. Either have items that add to skills, or do not. But, don't mix and match with items that blow skills out of the water for virtually no increase in price.

Compare a Ring of Climbing to a Hat of Disguise.

One gives a +5 to Climbing for 2500 GP and the other not only totally changes the appearance of the user, but gives a +10 to Disguise for 1800 GP.

This is not balanced. The Hat should cost more than the ring. In fact, the Hat should cost more than a Ring of Improved Climbing (10,000 GP) since it not only gives +10 to a skill, but it does more as well.


Look at a Ring of Invisibility. For all intents and purposes, it is +20 (or more) to a Hide skill.

At 20,000 GP, that's extremely cheap (and there is a reason that Tolkien made a beefed up version of it one of the most powerful items in his universe). A Ring of +20 to the Hide skill would cost 40,000 GP (bonus squared * 100 GP) and not be as effective as a Ring of Invisibility.


Compare Boots of Flying with a Broom of Flying. An item slot plus 5 minutes 3 times per day for 16,000 GP versus no slot for 9 hours per day plus you can call the broom to you for 17,000 GP.

Was any thought put into this at all? Not that I can tell.


One more thing. Unless disrupted, the Invisibility spell in 1E had an infinite duration. In 2E, it was 24 hours. In 3E, it was 10 minutes per level. In 3.5, it is 1 minute per level.

The Ring of Invisibility has the same infinite duration in 3.5 that it does in 1E (depending on how you read it, minimally, you have to activate it every three minutes in 3.5). But, the cost was: 1E 7500 GP, 2E no cost (due to silly 2E items not for sale type rules, but the XP requirement was the same as 1E), 3E 20,000 GP, 3.5 20,000 GP.

How come the spell itself is being neutered by a factor of times 10 or more each edition because it is too powerful, but the magic item really is not? It does not make sense. For most practical purposes, the item is nearly as powerful in 3.5 as it was in 1E, but the spell is not.

Why is the character who actually takes the spell screwed over more than someone who buys the item in a shop? Was it is more important to have Rogues Invisible all day long with an item than it is a Wizard to be Invisible for any reasonable duration with a spell?


I think that magic items that give spell capability to other characters should be a lot more expensive than items that give a bonus to a skill, a weapon, armor, etc.

I think that magic items that give personal spell capability to other characters should be even more expensive than ones that give other spell capability. IMO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

All of these items should not exist in their current incarnations.

But since they do exist in their current incarnations, isn't it more reasonable to say "Compare to a Hat of Disguise to get an idea of how to price your Buckle of Shield for the 3.5 D&D Game as it exists today" than to say "The Buckle of Shield shouldn't exist, and neither should several items from the book of core magic items"?

Look at a Ring of Invisibility.

Well, the Rings are a bit of a special case. They require a high level caster to craft, are generally pricey, and take up a valuable slot...

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

But since they do exist in their current incarnations, isn't it more reasonable to say "Compare to a Hat of Disguise to get an idea of how to price your Buckle of Shield for the 3.5 D&D Game as it exists today" than to say "The Buckle of Shield shouldn't exist, and neither should several items from the book of core magic items"?

Actually, I think nothing should be compared to the Hat of Disguise to get an idea of how to price magic items. I find the statement "Compare to a Hat of Disguise to get an idea of how to price your Buckle of Shield for the 3.5 D&D Game as it exists today" totally non-reasonable. If you did that, the Belt Buckle of Shield would cost 1800 GP (2700 GP if 1.5 times cost for Uncustomary space limitation).

+4 Shield bonus to AC for 1800 (or 2700) GP, no encumberance, no arcane spell failure, no requirement to actually hold a shield, etc. and it stacks with armor, rings, etc.

Way out of wack. Compare that to a +2 Animated Heavy Shield which costs 16,000 GP (or to a +3 Animated Light Shield which costs 25,000 GP). Compare it to a +2 AC Ring of Force Shield at 8500 GP.


And no, I think your statement "The Buckle of Shield shouldn't exist, and neither should several items from the book of core magic items" is not only reasonable to state, but a lot more reasonable than your first statement.

Well, the Rings are a bit of a special case. They require a high level caster to craft, are generally pricey, and take up a valuable slot...

Touche (but Rings of Invisibility are still way too cheap ).

 

[Jack Simth]

How many characters try to get Boots of Striding and Springing? A lot. These have an extremely high utility in the game.

High utility? Yes; very handy to be able to run away from someone, or to charge at them from outside their reach. But, umm..... where does it particularly hurt anything? I don't think I've seen a build where an extra 10 feet of movement broke the game.

Helm of Comprehend Languages negates the entire need for PCs to take languages.

Only for reading strange old manuscripts; still need to know the language to actually tell the locals anything (good luck getting lodging in the town that only speaks Draconic, otherwise).

Hat of Disguise is ridiculously low priced and minimizes the need for the Disguise skill.

Cuts down on it. But if someone, say, shakes your hand, they get a DC 11 will save to note that it's a fake appearence. Not so with the Disguise skill. Also, the lowly Detect Magic gives a spellcraft check to note that you've got Illusion on you. Which is kinda suspicious in any situation where you're trying to impersonate someone.

Quite frankly, I think the Designers screwed up a lot with magic item creation. Either have items that add to skills, or do not. But, don't mix and match with items that blow skills out of the water for virtually no increase in price.

They don't, really.

Compare a Ring of Climbing to a Hat of Disguise.

One gives a +5 to Climbing for 2500 GP and the other not only totally changes the appearance of the user, but gives a +10 to Disguise for 1800 GP.

This is not balanced. The Hat should cost more than the ring. In fact, the Hat should cost more than a Ring of Improved Climbing (10,000 GP) since it not only gives +10 to a skill, but it does more as well.

See above. There's a lot more limitations to the Hat of Disguise than there appears at first glance. An item that gave a +10 bonus to the disguise skill could be used, then stored; at which point, you can walk around with not a spec of magic on you, and be mostly immune to getting called out. A hat of Disguise constantly calls out it's magic. Also, it's priced as Command-Word at caster level 1. The new you lasts 10 minutes, after which you have to speak the command word to re-activate it. Not good for impersonations lasting more than that. A hat of bonus to disguise? Not so much.

Look at a Ring of Invisibility. For all intents and purposes, it is +20 (or more) to a Hide skill.

At 20,000 GP, that's extremely cheap (and there is a reason that Tolkien made a beefed up version of it one of the most powerful items in his universe). A Ring of +20 to the Hide skill would cost 40,000 GP (bonus squared * 100 GP) and not be as effective as a Ring of Invisibility.

A ring of Invisibility is foiled by See Invisibility (for the caster), a bat familiar and Glitterdust (for everybody), or partially foiled by Detect Magic (for the caster). Likewise, depending on interpertion, A ring of Invisibility must be activated every three minutes by Command Word (giving away your location). Of course, Invisibility is a Touch range spell, so doesn't fall under the little caveat of personal spells shouldn't be in items.

Compare Boots of Flying with a Broom of Flying. An item slot plus 5 minutes 3 times per day for 16,000 GP versus no slot for 9 hours per day plus you can call the broom to you for 17,000 GP.

You're forgetting: Fly 60 (good) for the boots, Fly 40 (Average) for the broom. The boots will let you hover over the field of battle and use the Summon Monster line, Full Attack a flying beast, or similar non-moving tasks. Try that with the broom, and you fall.

Was any thought put into this at all? Not that I can tell.

Plenty, from here.

One more thing. Unless disrupted, the Invisibility spell in 1E had an infinite duration. In 2E, it was 24 hours. In 3E, it was 10 minutes per level. In 3.5, it is 1 minute per level.

The Ring of Invisibility has the same infinite duration in 3.5 that it does in 1E (depending on how you read it, minimally, you have to activate it every three minutes in 3.5). But, the cost was: 1E 7500 GP, 2E no cost (due to silly 2E items not for sale type rules, but the XP requirement was the same as 1E), 3E 20,000 GP, 3.5 20,000 GP.

How come the spell itself is being neutered by a factor of times 10 or more each edition because it is too powerful, but the magic item really is not? It does not make sense. For most practical purposes, the item is nearly as powerful in 3.5 as it was in 1E, but the spell is not.

See above. If the ring seems to powerful, it's because you either aren't being strict with Command-Word interpertation, or your opponents just don't know how to counter invisibility.

Besides - attacking disrupts the ring just as it would the spell. Sure, you get maybe one sneak attack out of it, and you get past many guards, and similar, but it's hardly game breaking.

Why is the character who actually takes the spell screwed over more than someone who buys the item in a shop? Was it is more important to have Rogues Invisible all day long with an item than it is a Wizard to be Invisible for any reasonable duration with a spell?

Someone who buys the ring can use it on himself. Someone who has the spell can use it on another. A Sorceror-4 with Invisibilty can, once per day, turn an entire party of 4 (presuming a Charisma score of at least 14, of course) invisible for four minutes. Someone who takes the ring can turn himself invisible for three at a time.

I think that magic items that give spell capability to other characters should be a lot more expensive than items that give a bonus to a skill, a weapon, armor, etc.

I think that magic items that give personal spell capability to other characters should be even more expensive than ones that give other spell capability. IMO.

I just don't see the imbalance in the standard items.

 

[Hypersmurf]

+4 Shield bonus to AC for 1800 (or 2700) GP, no encumberance, no arcane spell failure, no requirement to actually hold a shield, etc. and it stacks with armor, rings, etc.

And lasts one minute, requiring a standard action to activate... a disadvantage neither of the others possesses.

Not that that necessarily makes 1800 fair, but it should be taken into account when comparing it to the animated shield or the ring.

-Hyp.

 

[Jack Simth]

+4 Shield bonus to AC for 1800 (or 2700) GP, no encumberance, no arcane spell failure, no requirement to actually hold a shield, etc. and it stacks with armor, rings, etc.

Way out of wack. Compare that to a +2 Animated Heavy Shield which costs 16,000 GP (or to a +3 Animated Light Shield which costs 25,000 GP). Compare it to a +2 AC Ring of Force Shield at 8500 GP.

Do compare to a +2 Animated Heavy Shield. A caster level 1 command word Shield item creates a Shield spell effect for one minute at a time, after which, it requires a Standard Action to reactivate. For the most part, this means you're using an action in combat to power up, that you might otherwise spend, say, hurting your opponents before they hurt you.

A +2 Animated Heavy Shield, on the other hand, doesn't have that limitation, as nowhere does it say it's acting as a spell, and nowhere does it specify how long the sheild floats. You can activate it in the morning and leave it floating there all day. You don't spend an action in combat to set it up.

 

[Elephant]

+4 Shield bonus to AC for 1800 (or 2700) GP, no encumberance, no arcane spell failure, no requirement to actually hold a shield, etc. and it stacks with armor, rings, etc.

Way out of wack. Compare that to a +2 Animated Heavy Shield which costs 16,000 GP (or to a +3 Animated Light Shield which costs 25,000 GP). Compare it to a +2 AC Ring of Force Shield at 8500 GP.

I prefer to compare it to the nonmagical Tower Shield which costs 30gp.