Ultimate Guide to Ambiguous/Problem Rules

[Artoomis]

#21's "Best Advice" never actually states the advice, merely restating the problem.

The advice is contained in the words after "ANSWER", but I agree it needs a big rewrite.

 

[Artoomis]

More stuff for the guide:

"Harping on semantics?" You made a clear an unequivocal statement - no semantics about it. Yes, I was having a little fun, but I certainly was not "harping on semantics." It seems that when you get exacting about language its just a good, legitimate point, but if I do it I'm harping on semantics Ah, well, moving on...

Anyway, the whole issue come down to when are touch attacks (and ranged touch attacks) like weapons, and when are they not like weapons. Obviously it varies by situation.

For example, touch attacks are like weapons when it comes to not provoking an AoO for an unarmed attack. Ranged touch attacks, however, are not like weapons when it come to provoking an AoO for using a ranged weapon.

You think they count as weapons for Coup de Grace, I do not.

Clearly, neither of use really believes they are weapons for all purposes, or that anything that does damage, requires an attack roll and can critical is a weapon for all purposes.

My actual serious point to make is that such things as improved unarmed attack, touch attacks and ranged touch attacks sometimes count as weapons and sometimes do not. It's not always clear from the rules which they should be, or even what the intent of the writers/editors was in any particular circumstance.

That, I think, is something on which we can agree.

I think I need a new item in my Guide that specifically addresses when an unarmed attack of one sort or another is considered the same as if you were armed with a weapon. That should be worthy of a pretty good entry in there, I should think.

 

[KarinsDad]

Literally, you get 1d4+1 "apparent" rounds, you do not get 1d4+1 normal rounds. That is the crux of the issue.

Actually, I now agree with you (now ).

Time Stop/Haste is not ambiguous, but it is obscure (for dense people like myself).

Having not read the original thread on this, I missed the argument that basically, no spells work within the confines of Time Stop. No spells cast during it and no spells cast before it.

But, this begs an interesting set of questions and problems.

If you are flying and cast Time Stop, you really cannot fly anywhere since magic will not work within the Time Stop. But, will you fall? If so, how quickly? How far?

If you are underwater and have already cast Freedom of Movement and Water Breathing, and then cast Time Stop, you may have difficulty casting spells since your Freedom of Movement is not working. Since harmful effects (fire, gas, etc.) still affect you, you would start to drown as well (or at least you have to hold your breathe, making verbal component spells difficult).

So, Time Stop appears to be mostly useful outside of hazardous environments, even harzardous environments for which the spell caster already has protection.

Finally, if you try to break an item with a magical weapon, will the magic of the weapon apply towards the damage done? If spells do not work during the Time Stop duration, does other magic such as enchantment bonuses from a weapon work? Would the magical light from your weapon suddenly blink off for you?

 

[Artoomis]

While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to the character's attacks and spells; however, the character can create spell effects and leave them to take effect when the time stop spell ends

What this does NOT say is that no ongoing magical effects keep going. So you'll keep flying, etc.

You won't have the extra partial action for each apparent round because you get that either before you cast TimeStop or after its over, because of the way Haste works - see Caliban's explanation.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

For a number of reasons, both for game balance and common sense, I will use #1 as "My Best Advice." If you don't, casting spells in combat quickly becomes a gimmie, and it is supposed to have some risk. Also, it won't come up often - how many times to multiple characters attempt to interrupt a spell from one spellcaster?

It is not at all uncommon when dealing with summon spells, actually.

So the damage keep tallying up and you find out if the spell is disrupted when the summoner gets his next action?

It gets even more ackward if I hit the summoner, then successfully grapple him. That is two checks right? When do you take them? What happens when the next PC does the same thing?

One roll for each source is simpler and more consistent. With 1 action casting time spells you have the option to do it either way, but that gets confusing when dealing with longer casting times.

 

[Caliban]

Actually, I now agree with you (now ).

Time Stop/Haste is not ambiguous, but it is obscure (for dense people like myself).

Having not read the original thread on this, I missed the argument that basically, no spells work within the confines of Time Stop. No spells cast during it and no spells cast before it.

I don't think they stop working, I just think you only get one round worth of effects out of them during the time stop (because while 1d4+1 rounds are passing for you, only one round is passing for the spell).

Logically, you should only take one rounds worth of environmental damage, and Time Stop is unclear enough that I think you could reasonably make that ruling. (It says you are still vulnerable, but it doesn't specify how often you are vulnerable. You are moving faster, but the environment isn't. *shrug*)

It can be hard to adjudicate, since the Time Spot spell is somewhat vague on what an "apparent round" means.

Best guess: You could only fly 90 feet during time stop, resist elements would only block 12 points of damage, even if you were somehow damaged multiple times during time stop, but Protection from Elements would give you the full benefit, since it's not limited to a certain amount of protection per round. Water breathing would only give you one round of protection, but you are really only under water for one round. Freedom of movement doesn't limit how much it affects you during a round, so it would benefit you for the duration of time stop.

 

[green slime]

Eversmoking bottle...

The Eversmoking bottle produces smoke, but is it the kind of smoke from a pyrotechnics spell (the required to create the item or as per the "heavy smoke" rules in the DMG? Or perhaps it has no further effects other than those described in the item description?

from the SRD:
Eversmoking Bottle

This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a spread of 50 feet in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke spreads another 10 feet per round until it has spread 100 feet. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered. The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally.

Caster Level: 3rd; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, pyrotechnics; Market Price: 5,200 gp; Weight: 1 lb.

and

from the SRD:
Smoke
A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude saving throw each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for two consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of subdual damage.
Smoke obscures vision, giving one-half concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.

further:

from the SRD:
Pyrotechnics

...snip spelldata...

Pyrotechnics turns a fire into either a burst of blinding fireworks or a thick cloud of choking smoke, depending on the version the character chooses.

...snip Firedata...

Smoke Cloud: The smoke is a writhing stream of smoke billowing out from the source and forming a choking cloud. The cloud spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud suffer –4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity scores (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the character leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.

Seems rather powerful to require "Heavy Smoke" Fort DC 15+1/round, with no SR for a mere 5200gp...

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't think they stop working, I just think you only get one round worth of effects out of them during the time stop (because while 1d4+1 rounds are passing for you, only one round is passing for the spell).

So, you would get the +4 AC (not that you will need it) and 1.5x jumping ability from the Haste, but not the extra partial action.

And, you get one round's worth of 1.5x jumping distance, not 1D4+1 rounds.

 

[Caliban]

So, you would get the +4 AC (not that you will need it) and 1.5x jumping ability from the Haste, but not the extra partial action.

And, you get one round's worth of 1.5x jumping distance, not 1D4+1 rounds.

You get the partial action, but you only get it once, becuase it only applies once per round. I think it would be before or after you took the time stop rounds, but there probably isn't any practical difference as to when you take it.

The 1.5 x jumping distance, probably only applies to one jump, but I could also see you ruling that it isn't limited to once per round and thus would apply to all your "apparent rounds". Like I said, it can be hard to adjudicate some of the details. I really wish they had playtested the higher level spells better.

 

[KarinsDad]

You get the partial action, but you only get it once, becuase it only applies once per round. I think it would be before or after you took the time stop rounds, but there probably isn't any practical difference as to when you take it.

Yeah, I meant that you do not get the partial action during the Time Stop. You still get it for your normal round.

Actually, there is a difference as to when you take it. If it is allowed within the Time Stop, then you could cast a spell with it and the spell could not be disrupted with an AoO. But, having it outside the Time Stop (which is what it would be if no spells worked during Time Stop), using it to cast a spell could be disrupted.

The 1.5 x jumping distance, probably only applies to one jump, but I could also see you ruling that it isn't limited to once per round and thus would apply to all your "apparent rounds". Like I said, it can be hard to adjudicate some of the details. I really wish they had playtested the higher level spells better.

That's the crux of the issue. I (now) view Time Stop as one of two possibilities:

1) No spells work within it since you are really pulled out of real time (this being from the fact that spells do not work right away within it). The problem here is with things like Water Breathing no longer working, hence, you cannot cast spells with verbal components anyway.

2) Spells cast within it do not work, but magic and spells cast previous to it do. Here, the problem is that you have to determine which portions of previous spells work and which do not "within the apparent rounds". For example, the partial action of Haste does not, the 1.5x jumping distance does. Some of the previous spell effects work during every round of apparent time, some work for only one round. It gets messy.

I think I prefer the first interpretation since I view it as normal duration of spells do not exist within the Time Stop, but having said that, it is apparent that some of this is still ambiguous.