Ultimate Magus Augmented Casting. Increased casting time?

[irdeggman]

No, you don't.

You loose a 1st level spell (mage armor)

and

a first level spell from a different arcane casting class, of the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat: +1.
(Note the word adjustment )

An Empowered fireball would require a 3rd level spell( fireball) and a 2nd level spell (Empower)

A Maximized Fireball would require a 3rd level spell (fireball) and another 3rd level spell (Maximize).

You are correct, the example in the book makes it clear

To empower a spell, for example, you would have to spend a 2nd level or higher spell.

Interestingly enough you can't use this ability to augment a spell already affected by a metamagic feat. So you can only apply 1 metamagic feat to a spell at a time.

 

[Gnosis]

I must have read it a different way...

I was under the impression that the purpose of spending the spell slot is benificial for both casting classes (otherwise why is it in a dual progression prestige)...

So for a Wizard the benefit is instantly gaining a metamagic by sacrificing a Spontaneous spellslot (precluding you from having to memorize at a higher spell level)

And for a Beguiler/Sorcerer etc, the benefit is that you sacrifice a memorized spellslot to AVOID the normal time extension on metamagic application to spontaneous spells. (otherwise there would be no benefit whatsoever for using augmented casting to "augment" a spontaneous spell.)

Remember you cant do this all day long so its relatively expensive (only a few casts per day if you stack metamagics - Read below)

ALSO... Augmented casting DOES permit you to spend multiple spellslots for multiple metamagic applications to a Single spell. It only says that you cannot apply metamagic from spellslot sacrifice to a already memorized metamagic'd spell. It is clear to me this means you could spend one 2nd level and one 3rd level spontaneous to cast an Empowered AND Maximized spell. The cost to you is depleating your augmented casting pool and spending 3 spells simultaneously of course but well worth it in emergencies. Manipulating magic is what this prestige is all about guys.

Another way to look at it is that Augmented Casting gives you a SEPARATE way to Metamagic. IT stacks just like standard metamagic does. The limitation is that you cannot MIX the two methods of metamagic. You cannot spellslot sacrifice to bump or alter an already standard metamagic'd spell.

That means you cant for example use standard metamagic to get your Empowered Fireball from your spontaneous class (by delaying casting time) AND THEN ALSO spellslot sacrifice thorugh Aug. Casting to get your Heighten and Maximize.

You can however simultaneously add two or more metamagics to a spell from ether the standard metamagic tactic OR Augmented Casting.

In order to apply any of the limitations you guys are placing on Augmented Casting I would need to see specific reference to the Ability... it seems clear to me that you dont need to worry about Increased casting time OR limiting aug casting to one metamagic feat per spell (none of those limitations are in the description!).

 

[irdeggman]

ALSO... Augmented casting DOES permit you to spend multiple spellslots for multiple metamagic applications to a Single spell. It only says that you cannot apply metamagic from spellslot sacrifice to a already memorized metamagic'd spell. It is clear to me this means you could spend one 2nd level and one 3rd level spontaneous to cast an Empowered AND Maximized spell. The cost to you is depleating your augmented casting pool and spending 3 spells simultaneously of course but well worth it in emergencies. Manipulating magic is what this prestige is all about guys.

I read it differently

You can't use this ability to augment a spell already affected by ametamagic feat.

The first time you apply a metamagic feat via augmentation it is not "affected" by the feat so it is no longer eligble to be augmented at that time.

This is similar to using metapsionic feats - they all require you to expend your focus in order to use, so the first one you apply - your focus is spent and thus you can't apply another one unless you have a means of having another focus maintained (like via a psicrystal).

 

[Gnosis]

The first time you apply a metamagic feat via augmentation it is not "affected" by the feat so it is no longer eligble to be augmented at that time.
This is similar to using metapsionic feats - they all require you to expend your focus in order to use

Im having trouble understanding your explaination... How could a metamagic feat applied via augmentation not be affected by the feat? obviously spells are combined with metamagic during or before casting one or more metamagic feats to it... and I dont see how Augmented Casting could be different mechanically - if the wording explicitly stated that two spellslots couldnt be sacrificed for one spell it would be another matter but the wording is more subtle.

I think the wording is there to keep people from thinking they can stack effects past their Aug Casting limit. So if they only have 2 left in the day they cant get 4 effects by simply combining the Aug Casting 2 metafeats with typical memorized metamagic or spontaneous metamagic (costing higher spell level)... Its this limitation that keeps Aug casting from being too broken. Imagine if you could tack on metamagic unlimited!

Also, that limitation for psionics is much more clearly stated. In this case however since they use the term "already affected by metamagic" It seems to me that you could expend more than one slot to get more than one effect as you cast.

 

[irdeggman]

When attacking while invisible (assume normal not improved) - are all the attacks made with the same benefit?

For example when making an attack with manyshot?

Or does after the first arrow the invisibility fade?

Do metamagic feats stack?

If so, doesn't that imply that they "add up" so that you apply one at a time?

Perhaps there is room for interpretation on this one, but I will go with my more conservative approach (which I tend to to).

 

[irdeggman]

I think the wording is there to keep people from thinking they can stack effects past their Aug Casting limit. So if they only have 2 left in the day they cant get 4 effects by simply combining the Aug Casting 2 metafeats with typical memorized metamagic or spontaneous metamagic (costing higher spell level)... Its this limitation that keeps Aug casting from being too broken. Imagine if you could tack on metamagic unlimited!

Why?

If you can apply multiple metamagic effects on a single spell via augmentation then why would this matter at all?

The distinction really only affects "fixed" spells then - which seems really out of balance to me, whereas if you apply it the way I read it it applies universally and still gives the spontaneous caster an anvantage over the fixed caster when it comes to applying metamagic feats, albeit with an increased casting time. Otherwise it becomes much more clearly advantagous for a fixed caster.

 

[Gnosis]

Conservative might be good in this case. Kindof hinges on how you interpret "already" - which is weird - i mean why didnt they just write "This effect cannot be applied to the same spell more than once." I think its because what they were trying to limit is more complex than that.

As a DM i think how you interpret it should probably depend on how powerful a campaign you like to run and how you balance magic and melee...

Im not sure that the sneak attack situation is a direct parallel because it is one feat... the ability to overlay metamagics in the fashion we're discussing costs not only 2 or more metamagic feats (at minimum) but also a prestige feat AND in one round spends a minimum of 3 spells (the one you're augmenting and the one or several you are sacrificing).

Regardless though i think it is clear no matter what: An ultimage cannot memorize an empowered, silent, still fireball and then sacrifice a spontaneous lvl 3 slot to maximize through augmented casting because this could permit them to regularly cast spells augmented by 4-5 metamagics several times daily without passing their Aug Casting limit.