Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana Mass Combat

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf

I wasn't expecting an article today...looks like a rehash of the old Mass Combat rules.

I was really hoping for the Mystic....

Pretty radically different from the previous attempt, much more abstract and fast paced; which is good, because it has been gestating for two years!
[MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] has been talking up various DM options in the works; looks like those will get the exposure for a little bit, now.

Sent from my BLU LIFE XL using EN World mobile app

 

[guachi]

The War Machine from the BECMI Companion Rules worked surprisingly well. They still work surprisingly well. I'm not certain if it was play-tested or they got lucky the first time out, but I still use these rules as they are better than anything I've seen since.

I'd prefer an update to War Machine adding 5e relevant bits. These new mass combat rules just don't do it for me.

 

[Leatherhead]

fwiw:

I find it hilarious that zombies and skeletons can have a Morale score. That works for some forms of stories, I suppose, but really, they need some specific rules that require you to take out their controller.

Also, cavalry units should count as one unit for the horse(or whatever) and rider.

Maybe they should start by creating generic unit types, and work their way up from there instead of trying to retrofit CRs into the system

 

[mrfish]

I might be missing something here, but it seems like in the case of two armies (of similar strength), the outcome is predetermined if there is more than an 18 point difference between them? A 100 BR army will always win against an 82 army as long as the 82 army doesn't win initiative in the first round and then rolls a 20 while the 100 army must roll 1? If the 100 army wins, the 82 army will lose 2 BR making it impossible for its 1d20+80 to beat the 1d20+100?

 

[Negflar2099]

I might be missing something here, but it seems like in the case of two armies (of similar strength), the outcome is predetermined if there is more than an 18 point difference between them? A 100 BR army will always win against an 82 army as long as the 82 army doesn't win initiative in the first round and then rolls a 20 while the 100 army must roll 1? If the 100 army wins, the 82 army will lose 2 BR making it impossible for its 1d20+80 to beat the 1d20+100?

I don't think you're missing anything (unless I'm missing it too). Somebody suggested we use average BR of the creatures in a unit but that doesn't feel right either as it would mean a unit of 500 thugs and a unit of 5 thugs would have the same BR.

Someone else suggested that for the purposes of attacks we calculate BR as if it were divided by 100 (without rounding). So in your above scenario the 100 BR unit would have an attack bonus of +1 while the 82 would have an attack bonus of +.82. I don't know if that feels right either because I'm not sure how factions would help. I would instead round off (so both in this case would have a +1 attack bonus).

Then both would have an equal chance of damaging the other. It doesn't solve the additional issue of how long all of this would take to resolve (if every attack does between 2-5 BR of "damage" that could be a lot of rounds before an 800 BR unit could get hurt enough to force a DC 15 morale check). On the other hand it doesn't seem right that 5 BR of damage would be enough to cause an 800 BR unit to flee (even if that morale check is only DC 10).

I might increase the damage by x10, so attacks would do between 20 and 50 points of damage. In that case a single successful devastating (50 BR damage) attack from the 100 BR unit against the 82 BR unit would cause that unit to have to to roll two morale checks, one DC 10 against the devastating attack and one DC 15 for losing more than half the creatures in the unit.

 

[mrfish]

Those seems like reasonable, and good fixes.

Im surprised they would even release this when issues like this are as obvious (even when taking into consideration the fact thats its released for playtest).

 

[Bawylie]

[MENTION=9629]Sly[/MENTION]flourish on Twitter mentioned ignoring BR and just using CR instead. (Assuming, I suppose, homogenous units). Thoughts?


-Brad

 

[designbot]

Basically, use standard D&D combat rules, but consolidate the initiative, actions, movement, attack rolls, AC, and saving throws for multiple identical creatures working together. Also consolidate HP, damage, and ability checks, but multiply them by the number of creatures participating.

Example:

Who would win—100 orcs or 5 young red dragons?

Unit 1: 100 orcs (15 x 100 = 1500 HP)
Unit 2: 5 dragons (178 x 5 = 890 HP)

Orcs win initiative and the sky goes dark as a flurry of javelins (+5 to hit) is hurled at the dragons. The orcs roll a 13, high enough to hit the dragons' 18 AC. They do 6 (1d6+3) x 100 = 600 damage to the dragons.

The dragons are dropped to 290 HP, meaning that only two remain, one of them injured (290/178 = 1.6).

Next the dragons spray the orcs with their fire breath—two 30' cones.

This is an area effect, so there are a couple of ways to handle this. The simpler option is to apply the attack to the entire unit and use the adjudication guidelines on DMG page 249 (30' ÷ 10 = 3 targets per cone) to assess the multiplier for the area damage. The whole unit makes one DC 17 Dexterity saving throw, and assuming they fail, the unit takes 56 (16d6) fire damage x 3 targets per cone, x 2 dragons in the unit, for a total of 336 fire damage, leaving the orcs at 1164 HP (78 orcs remaining).

Another alternative would be to map this on the battlefield, or do the math (30' x 30' ÷ 2 = 450 square feet = 18 5' x 5' spaces per cone), to estimate what fraction of the unit is hit. Let's assume that since the orcs are tightly packed in formation, we'll hit the maximum of 18 orcs per cone, for a total of 36 orcs. We then temporarily split those orcs into their own 540 HP unit. Whether they make their saving throw or not, they will be completely obliterated by the 2016 fire damage (56 x 18 x 2). That leaves a 960 HP unit of 64 orcs untouched by the fire. Let's say we do this.

The orcs attempt a melee attack, but fail to hit the 18 AC of the dragons.

The dragons then retaliate with a bite/claw/claw multiattack, hitting each time for a total of 92 damage (17+3 for the bite and 13 for each claw, x 2 dragons), reducing the orcs to 868 HP (58 orcs).

The 58 remaining orcs swarm the dragons and hack at them with their greataxes, doing 522 damage (9 x 58) and felling the beasts once and for all. (Let's take a moment to thank the dragons for staying on the ground to make this example easier.)

 

[Wrathamon]

why are the dragons in attack range of the orcs? I normally see dragons going flying in first and doing their breath. What happens in that scenario if the javelins are the counter attack to the first strike of firebreating dragons?

 

[designbot]

why are the dragons in attack range of the orcs? I normally see dragons going flying in first and doing their breath. What happens in that scenario if the javelins are the counter attack to the first strike of firebreating dragons?

Obviously, it would be smarter for the dragons to stay out of range, which makes them a bad example, perhaps. They might be able to just repeatedly strafe the orcs. With a flying speed of 80 feet, however, the orcs probably could still attack with their javelins (range 30/120) at disadvantage. However, that's the exact same issue you would face in any combat of orcs vs. dragons—it's nothing unique to the mass combat proposal.

If the dragons win initiative, they can do significantly more damage, wiping out perhaps 90% of the orcs in the first attack (18 targets x 5 cones) if they're willing to get down close to the ground to maximize the attack area.

 

[zaratan]

Obviously, it would be smarter for the dragons to stay out of range, which makes them a bad example, perhaps. They might be able to just repeatedly strafe the orcs. With a flying speed of 80 feet, however, the orcs probably could still attack with their javelins (range 30/120) at disadvantage. However, that's the exact same issue you would face in any combat of orcs vs. dragons—it's nothing unique to the mass combat proposal.

If the dragons win initiative, they can do significantly more damage, wiping out perhaps 90% of the orcs in the first attack (18 targets x 5 cones) if they're willing to get down close to the ground to maximize the attack area.

and if this was like I propose to convert unit to one single creature following the monster construction in DMG?
10 BR in 1 level of CR table (page 274), starting at 1/8

100 orcs are like 20 BR, or 1 creature of 1/2 (exactly 1 orc), just get orc stats
5 young red dragons 60 BR, 1 creature of a CR 4 creature, exactly red dragon wyrmling

If orc lose 33% of HP, his DPR, AC and attack bonus will fall to a 1/4 CR, more 33% hp (of the initial one) to a 1/8 and 0 total dead (probably will retreat with bad morale)
if dragon lose 14,28%, will drop to CR 3 stats... and so.

you can weaken greater units and some features of the creatures can work to.
In fact will be easier to calculate if only use DMG table in page 274, ignoring the rest of CR calculation... but if math isn't a problem for you...

View attachment 81466