Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana Mass Combat

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf

I wasn't expecting an article today...looks like a rehash of the old Mass Combat rules.

I was really hoping for the Mystic....

Pretty radically different from the previous attempt, much more abstract and fast paced; which is good, because it has been gestating for two years!
[MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] has been talking up various DM options in the works; looks like those will get the exposure for a little bit, now.

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[FitzTheRuke]

I think the BR is supposed to be the average of the BRs that make up the unit, but it's true, it doesn't say that anywhere (that I can find).

Someone should try that math and see what difference it makes.

... Looks like it might be weird, too.

 

[Xeviat]

If BR is total of the unit (I think it is; they say spells take out individuals), then the opposed roll needs to be bigger. 5d20 or 1d100 or something, depending on how swingy you want things. Or, like I said, units need to take damage when they attack.

Turns shouldn't be "you go, I go". They should be movement by initiative, and when units mix you decide how they're acting: attack, withdraw, defend, etc.


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[Storyteller Hero]

Horse archers just plain don't work. Horses don't have ranged attacks.

I dunno...dem ponies got some skills...

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[Valdier]

I think an attack should always cost some potency from a group. But, remember this: a CR 3 baddy is more challenging than a standard level 3 PC. CR doesn't equal level. So, even with the initial 100 hill giants vs 400 veterans, look at 4 veterans against 1 hill giant. The veterans should destroy the hill giant.

This doesn't address the problem... 400 Githyanki Knights can fight an 1000's of Ancient Brass and White Dragons in units of 25?

Are you saying 16 Githyanki Knights should destroy an Ancient Dragon flying and strafing? No... Should they be able to defeat an unlimited number of them 1 after the other? Because these rules say yes.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how it works and the only conclusion I am coming to is : IT DOESN'T

They either didn't even try these rules, or they missed putting something critical in the article that makes it work.

As it is, four thousand Drow can't beat four hundred Duergar, EVER.

 

[Lidgar]

A large BR bonus for flanking/adjacency of friendly units might help.

That, and/or the winning unit always loses BR strength even after a successful attack, as others have suggested.

 

[EthanSental]

I'm actually using the 2e battlesystem converted over to 5e with minor adjustments, both army wise and skirmish rules wise.... ran smoothly first battle which was the Greenest battle at the beginning of HotDQ. No PC impact since they were first level but now that they are 7th, I've converted them into the skirmish rules for commanders for a battle coming up in a few sessions.

 

[designbot]

I understand the thinking here, and I like the intuitiveness. (A 5' square holds one Medium creature, so a 100' square holds a 20 x 20 formation of Medium creatures.) As everyone has mentioned, though, the math doesn't seem like it leaves any room for chance.

A 400+ modifier to a d20 roll is just silly. And unifying the unit size at 100' doesn't work out, because larger creatures take up 4, 9, or 16 times as much space without inherently increasing CR/BR due to their size.

I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind how the BR values were calculated (instead of just using CR), and why opposed rolls are used instead of targeting an equivalent to AC.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I understand the thinking here, and I like the intuitiveness. (A 5' square holds one Medium creature, so a 100' square holds a 20 x 20 formation of Medium creatures.) As everyone has mentioned, though, the math doesn't seem like it leaves any room for chance.

A 400+ modifier to a d20 roll is just silly. And unifying the unit size at 100' doesn't work out, because larger creatures take up 4, 9, or 16 times as much space without inherently increasing CR/BR due to their size.

I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind how the BR values were calculated (instead of just using CR), and why opposed rolls are used instead of targeting an equivalent to AC.

400+ modifiers are indeed silly. Here's my attempt at revising the rules from http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf:

(1) Every mass combat turn takes 10 minutes, not 1 minute. (This is an aesthetic choice to make battles feel right; choose a different timeframe if you prefer.)

(2) Use everybody declares/everybody acts resolution, like BattleTech or AD&D, instead of turn-by-turn resolution. This is important for resolving battles.

(3) There is no Attack only, only a Fight action. When a unit Fights another unit, both of them are fighting and either one can take damage. See below.

(4) Resolve movement before resolving Fights. You don't need to Disengage unless you were already adjacent to the enemy at the beginning of your turn (during action declaration).

(5) When a fight occurs, you total up the BR of all allies involved in the Fight on each side, and roll 3d6 * (BR/100, not rounded). The enemy units in the fight must lose that many BR--the enemy commander(s)/players can allocate the losses wherever they chose. Whoever loses the most BR is the loser and must make a morale check or disband and be destroyed. There is a cumulative -1 penalty to the morale check for every 5% casualties the unit has taken.

Example: If 200 BR of dwarves are Fighting 300 BR of Yetis while 150 BR of elven archers fires arrows at the Yetis, the dwarves and the elves roll 3d6 * 350 and the Yetis roll 3d6 * 300. If the elves and dwarves roll 11 and the Yetis roll a 12, then Yetis lose (11 * 3.5) = 38.5 BR, rounded down per usual 5E rules to 38. The elves and the dwarves lose 12 * 3 = 36 BR, which the dwarven commander allocates to the dwarves (because that makes sense, since the elves aren't in the melee and Yetis don't have spears). The DM is playing the Yeti commander and allocates all 38 BR to the Yetis. Since the Yetis took more BR damage, the elves and the dwarves win the field, and the Yetis must make a DC 10 morale check at -2 (they've taken 12% casualties) or be disbanded. The DM rules that the Yetis are normally Stalwart (+4), so the Yetis roll at +2 total. They roll a natural 14, for a total of 16, and remain intact. The Yetis and the dwarves will continue to fight next turn.

 

[Quickleaf]

So, I'm going to end up double posting it looks like, because as I was getting dinner I realized some implications of the math that is just weird as hell.

So, let us take a unit of 399 veterans and a Warlord from Volo's guide. A seasoned unit led by a legendary commander, not an army mind, because 400 men does not an army make, even back in those days, but an impressively large force it still is.

Using the BR calculator the CR 3 Veterans are worth a total of 798 (399*2) and their commander is worth an additional 18 (CR 12)

For a grand total of 816 BR.

This means when they attack they roll 1d20+816... which realistically means that any group with a BR less than 810 stands almost no chance of winning, because the swing is only 20 points. Even a group with 800 BR is going to have a tough time of it, because if they lose a roll by 10 points they lose 5 points permanently. At 796 an army might as well surrender, because they will never win.

To win with a group of giants, calling back to the discussion up above, they would need to be...

Wow, they can't. Even if we take Storm Giant Quintessants from Volo's Guide, at only 44 creatures in a unit they rank in at 704 BR.

The creatures composing the unit have to be CR 19 to be a group of largely CR 3.

Meaning you need 44 creatures like the Balor or Pit Fiend to even have a fair fight against this army (when it turns out you can probably conquer the world, I'll let you be an army with 400 men)


Here's the real kicker though, let's say our enterprising warlord gets his hands on some warhorses and decides to mount his army.

They lose 481 BR.

Being mounted makes them Large creatures, meaning their can only be 100 of them in the unit. 99 Veterans (297) + 1 Warlord (18) + 100 Horses (20 [CR 1/2 means 1 BR for every 5]) gives you a total BR of 335.


So... to recap. Range is worthless because the enemies can reach you before you can shoot, and a unit of Infantry is more than twice as powerful as a unit of Cavalry.

Oh, and CR 3 humans can invade and destroy the Entirety of the 9 hells and Abyss, unless you stop using these rules and use the normal game rules...

I hate to say it, but these rules are entirely worthless I think

On the unit vs. unit scale, the whole size limitation of units seems to favor larger numbers of higher CR Tiny/Small/Medium creatures than it does Large/Huge creatures. It's very strange.

And then I don't understand the damage in this system either.

Imagine that unit of 399 Veterans and CR 12 Commander (total BR 816). These rules are telling me that if my unit of Death Knights were to win an attack by 10 or more against these Veterans, that I would inflict -5 BR worth of damage. What?!? So they're down to BR 811 now? My goodness, how long are these mass combats supposed to take?