Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana Mass Combat

http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/2017_UAMassCombat_MCUA_v1.pdf

I wasn't expecting an article today...looks like a rehash of the old Mass Combat rules.

I was really hoping for the Mystic....

Pretty radically different from the previous attempt, much more abstract and fast paced; which is good, because it has been gestating for two years!
[MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] has been talking up various DM options in the works; looks like those will get the exposure for a little bit, now.

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[Krachek]

Fatigue should probably exist, or you should always take 1 point of damage from an attack. I don't have my MM on hand; what's their AC to attack difference?


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4 veterans or even worse 9 veterans should destroy a single hill giant without problems.
But without damage ? Probably not.
They also don't figure out line of battle. You can't be more than three medium size in front of a huge creature.

 

[Krachek]

I got an idea.
The system can work for small difference of BR.
Over 20 of difference we should simply declare the lower unit destroyed. The winning unit have its BR reduce by the amount of the BR of the defeated unit. Maybe allow a check of the leader to divide this reduction by two.

The veteran unit starting with a BR of 800, can defeat 4 units of hill giant 176 before being unable to continue.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'm wondering if there should be 2 different types of BR values, one for offense and one for defense. Would it make the system much more complicated?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So my group used the original Unearthed Arcana Mass Combat rules from a year or two ago, and we hated them. There were lots of reasons why they didn't work, and this honestly changes none of them.

One thing that clearly jumps out to me is that spellcasters are still getting hosed (while melee may have it worse, let me explain)

So, you are the wizard, you jump into a unit, but decide to hold yourself separate from the guardsmen you are helping. Round X, you spend an entire minute casting a single Fireball spell... which is six seconds of you actually doing something. And the result is.... stop the battle, calculate how many creatures just got hit, have them all roll Dex saves as normal, okay these 15 creatures take 1/2 these 10 take full, that kills these 10, which then I recalculate the BR and reduce it (good thing you killed some or that would have done nothing to change the tide of battle) and... start back up the mass combat rules.

Why give us mass combat rules, and then tell the players that they don't interact with the mass combat rules?

I ran into this and something else while playing a storm sorcerer. Durations. I used Call Lightning (it was still in UA) and I would get... 1 strike every minute? That's 10 strikes over the course of the spell, when it lasts for 10 minutes though and I should be getting 100 strikes. And the wizard is only getting one spell off every minute, which is not realistic to their actual impact of casting 10 spells in that minute. *snip*

None of these criticisms apply to the current version of the Mass Combat rules. They solved the problem you're talking about here by completely abandoning that level of detail. If you're rolling damage dice, you're no longer in Mass Combat at all, you're just in regular combat at scale.

One thing that does occur is that the current Mass Combat rules don't talk about resource depletion. If a wizard and his unit fight a battle, how many spells does he have left over at the end? Does a Fighter still have action surges?

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, I'm going to end up double posting it looks like, because as I was getting dinner I realized some implications of the math that is just weird as hell.

So, let us take a unit of 399 veterans and a Warlord from Volo's guide. A seasoned unit led by a legendary commander, not an army mind, because 400 men does not an army make, even back in those days, but an impressively large force it still is.

Using the BR calculator the CR 3 Veterans are worth a total of 798 (399*2) and their commander is worth an additional 18 (CR 12)

For a grand total of 816 BR.

This means when they attack they roll 1d20+816... which realistically means that any group with a BR less than 810 stands almost no chance of winning, because the swing is only 20 points. Even a group with 800 BR is going to have a tough time of it, because if they lose a roll by 10 points they lose 5 points permanently. At 796 an army might as well surrender, because they will never win.

To win with a group of giants, calling back to the discussion up above, they would need to be...

Wow, they can't. Even if we take Storm Giant Quintessants from Volo's Guide, at only 44 creatures in a unit they rank in at 704 BR.

The creatures composing the unit have to be CR 19 to be a group of largely CR 3.

Meaning you need 44 creatures like the Balor or Pit Fiend to even have a fair fight against this army (when it turns out you can probably conquer the world, I'll let you be an army with 400 men)


Here's the real kicker though, let's say our enterprising warlord gets his hands on some warhorses and decides to mount his army.

They lose 481 BR.

Being mounted makes them Large creatures, meaning their can only be 100 of them in the unit. 99 Veterans (297) + 1 Warlord (18) + 100 Horses (20 [CR 1/2 means 1 BR for every 5]) gives you a total BR of 335.


So... to recap. Range is worthless because the enemies can reach you before you can shoot, and a unit of Infantry is more than twice as powerful as a unit of Cavalry.

Oh, and CR 3 humans can invade and destroy the Entirety of the 9 hells and Abyss, unless you stop using these rules and use the normal game rules...

I hate to say it, but these rules are entirely worthless I think

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

They also don't figure out line of battle. You can't be more than three medium size in front of a huge creature.

Goblin Conga Line for Veterans.

 

[Chaosmancer]

None of these criticisms apply to the current version of the Mass Combat rules. They solved the problem you're talking about here by completely abandoning that level of detail. If you're rolling damage dice, you're no longer in Mass Combat at all, you're just in regular combat at scale.

One thing that does occur is that the current Mass Combat rules don't talk about resource depletion. If a wizard and his unit fight a battle, how many spells does he have left over at the end? Does a Fighter still have action surges?

This does apply to the current rules, because the rules say that to interact in the combat to leave the mass combat rules and go to character driven rules.

What is the point of mass combat rules if you abandon them as soon as the PCs are on the field?

The closest these come to talking about characters in these combats is the top of page 5... where this is essentially what they say. Make your attacks, determine how many enemies you eliminated (by using the base rules and HP and AC I imagine) then go back to mass combat rules.

And here's the issue, if you are going to say these rules are for determining the battle that is going on around the PCs... that is boring as hell for players. Because they essentially have a front row seat to the DM playing dice with himself. I forgot that in my rant previously, but that was the biggest problem with the old system they tried. The players just sat and watched the DM roll dice and calculate numbers, without being able to drastically alter the course of the battle.

 

[Lidgar]

Those size mechanics are wonky - makes all those large+ creatures at a distinct disadvantage.

I would probably toss those, or introduce a BR bonus for larger creatures.

Also would add flanking rules - this really only resolves 1 v 1 unit; need to represent dynamics of multiple units "ganging up" on a unit.

 

[Eubani]

Horse archers just plain don't work. Horses don't have ranged attacks.

Then you obviously have never watched any of the 80's cartoon series Bravestar.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This does apply to the current rules, because the rules say that to interact in the combat to leave the mass combat rules and go to character driven rules.

What is the point of mass combat rules if you abandon them as soon as the PCs are on the field?

The PCs can still interact, as generals, with the mass combat rules. I still haven't read these particular rules thoroughly, but in general the point of mass combat rules is to provide a higher level of abstraction for times when details don't matter as much--then you zoom in whenever details matter.

Let's say you're 14th level, and the kingdom is being invaded by hobgoblins. There's a thousand friendly troops that are trying to repel four thousand hobgoblins and three hundred hill giants spread out over a front of about three miles. The PCs can only be in one place at a time, and nobody wants to sit around doing nothing while the DM rolls five thousand attacks that don't involve the PCs. So instead, the PCs pick a critical fight to get involved in, like assassinating the hobgoblin general (reduces morale) and distracting half of the hill giants with massed illusions (perhaps "destroying" the hill giant unit as a combat formation even though none of them are dead), and then you play out the rest of the battle to see if what the PCs were able to accomplish was enough to turn the tide.

That's when you want mass combat rules, when the PCs are not onscreen. If they are onscreen that's just regular combat against a large number of foes, perhaps using the horde rules.

The closest these come to talking about characters in these combats is the top of page 5... where this is essentially what they say. Make your attacks, determine how many enemies you eliminated (by using the base rules and HP and AC I imagine) then go back to mass combat rules.

Exactly.

And here's the issue, if you are going to say these rules are for determining the battle that is going on around the PCs... that is boring as ---- for players. Because they essentially have a front row seat to the DM playing dice with himself. I forgot that in my rant previously, but that was the biggest problem with the old system they tried. The players just sat and watched the DM roll dice and calculate numbers, without being able to drastically alter the course of the battle.

It's about reducing the number of dice that are involved, and providing enough rules support that the DM can let the players give orders to/roll the dice for "their side." Without mass combat rules, all you've got is DM fiat, which leaves no way for players to be involved at all.