Untrained/trained Skills....Noooo!

[Plane Sailing]

ps nice website!

Hey thanks!

I must update it again one of these days

 

[Nebulous]

The way you limit this is with trained/untrained uses. An adventurer can't perform brain surgery, no matter what kind of bonus he'd theoretically get to the heal roll, if he isn't trained. Similar with craft. You can cobble together an awesome raft out of barrels and detritus, in order to escape a desert island, using your big-ass bonus. However, you cannot carve David out of marble, because you're not trained.

Simple.

This is my understanding as well, and this is something that simply needs to be understood by the GM and explained to the players. Um, or vice-versa.

 

[Plane Sailing]

1) No/ not enough base knowledge. Sure you can use skills untrained but the only bonus you get is your ability bonus. That is not enough. If you get a base knowledge (say 5 ranks or so) in your untrained skills you might actually use them and succeed. This does not include skills that have to be trained.

In SWSE your bonus isn't just your ability bonus - it includes half your level too. This means that by 10th level any of the party can have a go at swimming, or driving, or riding or piloting the starship (although they might not want to try *landing* the starship!).

And if your 10th level character comes from a desert world and never sees water, just agree with the DM that 'I can't swim' and treat yourself as having 0 ranks (rather than using the +7 or whatever you might ordinarily be 'entitled' too)

 

[Henry]

I think one of the more underrated aspects of skill ranks is that they allow a character to alter their talents as they advance. As a bard, I might keep my Perform skill maxed out. But if my fighter dabbles in playing the lyre, I might want to toss a few ranks in Perform and then leave it as is, reflecting it as a talent but not one that is as well-developed as, say, his ability to intimidate people.

This is the thing that bugs me most about the Saga Edition's skill system - the loss of the "fine-tuning." I could see hybrid systems which give a certain amount of base bonus, then allow you to add a small pool of "customization points," but the blanket bonuses which are given to SW characters would bug me if I played one regularly in a long-term game. For one-offs or characters I care little about (like NPCs), I LOVE the generic "max out X skills" approach.

It's kind of like buying a soft, medium, or hard mattress, versus owning a SelectComfort bed.

 

[RigaMortus2]

A 20th level (or so) adventurer -often with very high abilities- who has never picked up a sculpters tools in his life will be able to make things like an old master

That is not true at all. The old master will be at least +10 above him. +5 for being Trained in it, and most likely another +5 for having Skill Focus.

 

[Henry]

That is not true at all. The old master will be at least +10 above him. +5 for being Trained in it, and most likely another +5 for having Skill Focus.

I think he's saying the +10 the 20th level person is getting is going to put him on parity with the hypothetical low-level "old master," who's getting his +10 from the training and the focus. Now, counting the whole concept of re-roll abilities, stuff you can only do when trained, etc. there's still enough difference, but it is jarring to a 3E mindset to see an untrained 20th level guy with a +10 to +14 to some skill.

 

[Celebrim]

This is the thing that bugs me most about the Saga Edition's skill system - the loss of the "fine-tuning." I could see hybrid systems which give a certain amount of base bonus, then allow you to add a small pool of "customization points," but the blanket bonuses which are given to SW characters would bug me if I played one regularly in a long-term game.

I think it bugs me even more than that. The problem I have with it is that you might as well not have a skill system at all. The old notion for 1st edition of 'secondary skills' where, if the task is in the province of your secondary skill, you automatically succeed and if it isn't then you don't works just as well without the now useless (and time consuming) formality of dice rolling.

The notion of near universal competancy discourages me as a DM from even bothering with skill challenges. Everyone can swim? Well, then swimming isn't a hazard, it's an option. Everyone can climb? Well, then climbing isn't a hazard or an obstacle, it's an option.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Everyone can swim? Well, then swimming isn't a hazard, it's an option.

It still is if you are in an aquatic situation that requires a DC 25 Swim check and you are 20th level and untrained (10 + Str modifier) etc.

 

[FireLance]

I think it bugs me even more than that. The problem I have with it is that you might as well not have a skill system at all. The old notion for 1st edition of 'secondary skills' where, if the task is in the province of your secondary skill, you automatically succeed and if it isn't then you don't works just as well without the now useless (and time consuming) formality of dice rolling.

The notion of near universal competancy discourages me as a DM from even bothering with skill challenges. Everyone can swim? Well, then swimming isn't a hazard, it's an option. Everyone can climb? Well, then climbing isn't a hazard or an obstacle, it's an option.

It's not a system of universal competence. It's a system of relatively constant differential between the most and least skilled members of the party. My guess is, 4e will also recommend that hazards scale with the level of the party, so that at any one time, the least skilled PC will have a low chance of success (say, 25%), while the most skilled PC will have a low chance of failure (say, 25%). If everyone has to make an individual check, and there is no way for a more skilled PC to help a less skilled PC, and there is some penalty for failure, then it makes each skill check interesting for every player - the player of the least skilled PC because he just might succeed, and the player of the most skilled PC because he just might fail.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

The way you limit this is with trained/untrained uses. An adventurer can't perform brain surgery, no matter what kind of bonus he'd theoretically get to the heal roll, if he isn't trained. Similar with craft. You can cobble together an awesome raft out of barrels and detritus, in order to escape a desert island, using your big-ass bonus. However, you cannot carve David out of marble, because you're not trained.

Simple.

Can't emphasize this point enough.