Wand of Cu Light vs Wand of Vigor, Lesser

[Hypersmurf]

For the record, I also think that the vigor range of spells should be Transmutation and not Conjuration (healing), so that Augment Healing would not work with them.

Arguably, it doesn't.

Augment Healing adds to the amount of damage healed by a Healing spell. There is no damage healed by a Vigor spell, therefore there is nothing for Augment Healing to add to.

Vigor doesn't heal damage, it provides a character with the Fast Healing ability.

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Lesser Vigor actually reduces the cost of out of combat healing by exactly 50%... assuming three things:
1. You have ready access to wands of lesser vigor
2. You have time to let it work (already discussed adequately)
3. You rely exclusively on consumables to heal after combat

With regard to cost, 3 is actually a very significant factor. In my experience, characters only use consumables to heal after combat if they are low on spells and/or worried about the possibility of another (tough) fight. In most of the encounters where they're pretty sure there won't be another group of wyverns on the road between Dyvers and Chendl that day, characters will just cast their spells to heal up. By the time wands are affordable, IME, it's only ther series of encounters in the same day that they would be used on. (Otherwise, the characters aren't saving money, they're just throwing it away more slowly). There are few enough of these that I would estimate it only boils down to 750gp or so of savings for the whole party across a two to three level span. (My 7th level Living Greyhawk character got a wand of cure light wounds at 2nd level and still has roughly half the charges left and my party in RttToEE went through about 1.5 wands of CLW between levels 4 and 8 IIRC so that's a fairly conservative figure). Even if the party went through one wand of CLW (between all of them) for every level they gained (starting at level 4 when wands become readily affordable), switching to wands of lesser vigor would only save them about 6000gp--split across the whole party and over 20 levels.

In the larger scheme of things, I don't think saving 1500 gp over 20 levels is a really big deal. Even if your party needs to use wands so much that every character goes through an entire wand of cure light wounds every level, you're still only talking 6000gp of savings by level 20. That's not a big deal--certainly not enough to consistently outweigh the utility of being able to heal quickly and to be healed by rangers, bards, and paladins.

CLW i sbetter in combat at levels 1-2.
Then Vigor is much more usefull.
If practicaly cuts in half the cost of healing after combat, which is a VERY common thing to do. It isn't a very "niche" role for a spell.
I mean, it's something too common to be so drastically changed by a splat book spell.
It really makes CLW wands useless.

 

[Diirk]

Arguably, it doesn't.

Augment Healing adds to the amount of damage healed by a Healing spell. There is no damage healed by a Vigor spell, therefore there is nothing for Augment Healing to add to.

Vigor doesn't heal damage, it provides a character with the Fast Healing ability.

-Hyp.

The problem with that argument, is it doesn't matter. Mass Lesser Vigor is a 3rd level conjuration (healing) spell. It heals no damage. Augment Healing makes it heal an extra 6 (2x3). It now heals 6 damage, in addition to providing fast healing 1 for however many rounds.

From a literal interpretation, anyway. There's no requirement in the augment healing feat that the spell you cast has to normally be able to heal damage... it simply needs to be a conjuration (healing) spell.

 

[Shellman]

Yes and no. A cleric can certainly convert any prepared spell into an appropriate CXW spell (CXW meaning Cure Light Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, etc.). He can't convert to a Vigor spell, which means that he must prepare them ahead of time.

What I was getting at, however, is that Cure Light Wounds (along with many of its brothers) is on the spell list of multiple classes: Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Bard, etc. Accordingly, any of those classes can pick up and use a wand of CLW. Vigor is Cleric-only (or Cleric- and Druid-only), which means that fewer people can use that particular wand.

Thus, an extra wand or two of CLW in the hands of the other members of the party is an excellent back-up plan, a safety net for when the cleric cops one.

Just a thought,

You know that sneaky pest of a PC who goes around trying to do wads of sneak attack damage tends not to be able to take alot of damage. With only a d6 for HD, that use magic device skill can come in handy if he needs some immediate healing.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Just a thought,

You know that sneaky pest of a PC who goes around trying to do wads of sneak attack damage tends not to be able to take alot of damage. With only a d6 for HD, that use magic device skill can come in handy if he needs some immediate healing.

Very true. However, a guaranteed back-up is generally better than an "It might work" back-up.

Use a Wand: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.
...

Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item again for 24 hours.

 

[Thanee]

Hey, you could be a Warlock, then it is guaranteed to work.

Bye
Thanee

 

[VorpalStare]

CLW i sbetter in combat at levels 1-2.
Then Vigor is much more usefull.

In my experience, the opposite is true. At higher levels, the damage accumulates so fast that the healing provided by the Vigor spells is overwhelmed. At levels 1-2, where it might take a few rounds for the fighter to run out of hit points, a lesser vigor spell can make quite a difference (almost as much as a cure light wounds spell), and provides after combat healing as well. The trick is trying to predict how much damage will be taken so that the healing is not wasted.

 

[VorpalStare]

Lesser Vigor actually reduces the cost of out of combat healing ....

Let me include in the cost of out of combat healing the extra prepared spells the cleric must expend. I also have a LG cleric who makes extensive use of this spell. His usual M.O. after combat (if we're not expecting another fight immediately) is to cast this spell on everyone who needs it and repeatedly recover the spell with the several 1st level pearls of power he carries.

The net result is that he usually doesn't have to spend any of his higher-level spells to heal the party up, making those spells available for more encounters in the same day, and saving consumable healing resources. The low-level, efficient healing is a huge benefit.

 

[VorpalStare]

Fundamentally, time is an often-overlooked resource.

The superiority of the vigor range of spells over the cure range of spells depends greatly on how much time the PCs have to spend.....

I completely agree with this assessment, even more so while combat is still in progress. This is where a CLW wand outshines a LV wand, even beyond low levels. On many occasions IME the wizard, druid, or other key character gets knocked unconscious at the beginning of combat. The entire tide of battle may depend on this character getting back into the fight.

If the sorcerer is at -2 hit points, for example, a CLW can get him conscious quick enough to get off an extra fireball, web, etc. Even if the cleric has both a CLW wand and a LV wand, he'll use the CLW wand on the sorcerer (assuming he's out of other healing options). In the same situation, a rogue or a bard could use the CLW on the sorcerer, freeing the cleric to bolster the front lines.

 

[tomBitonti]

What I was getting at, however, is that Cure Light Wounds (along with many of its brothers) is on the spell list of multiple classes: Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Bard, etc. Accordingly, any of those classes can pick up and use a wand of CLW. Vigor is Cleric-only (or Cleric- and Druid-only), which means that fewer people can use that particular wand.

Is this perhaps an oversight? Now I need to go back to my books and check exactly
what classes get which of the new spells. What would the reason be for denying
classes the Vigor family, if they can already cast spells from the Cure family? I don't
see that Lesser Vigor is more "Cleric"-ish than Cure Light.

[BAIT ON]
Waiting for the reason to be that "Vigor is too good" to give it to the other classes.
[BAIT OFF]