D&D General Warlock Great Old One

jgsugden

Legend
Personally, I think the Shadows are really obviously Fiend-type beings rather than GOO. They aren't even slightly incomprehensible (nor are the Vorlons), they just couch all of their really quite plain motives behind seventeen unnecessary layers of metaphor. There's always a clear reason why they're doing what they're doing, especially when it comes to Londo. (Indeed, the fact that their 'avatars' are reduced to practically child-like dialogue after getting told off by Delenn and Sheridan--"Will you...come with us?" [...] "Then...we will not be alone?"--shows to me that, for all their metaphor, their desires remain very comprehensible.)
You might not be in tune with the majority here. Or JMS. https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow
Note:
Behind the Mythos
Author J. Michael Straczynski goes into detail about the influence of Lovecraft on his show in Babylon 5: The Scripts of J. Michael Straczynski, TV Movies.
I don't have my copy of the script book available to me right now, but if someone else does there are discussions in there that back the Shadows / Lovecraft connection.

You can also go back and watch the episode Where Giants Walk, and then consider that the beings G'Kar discusses are meant to be peers to the Shadows.

Your view of 'what is GOO/Lovecraftian' seems to be narrower than mine, and of others. In the end, D&D works best when youexpand options rather than saying there is only one narrow way to do things correctly. For my games, there are a plentitude of ways to run a GOO warlock - including an origin that invoklves sitting down at a table with a mysterious stranger and signing a 43 page document. YMMV.
 

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Blue Orange

Gone to Texas
Borders on Fiend, but how many rock songs based on Appendix N material do we have written by the original author?


IMHO, Lovecraftian beings are unintelligible and unknowable. No reason they can't give you a magic sword (axe, staff, spear, spoon) and a bunch of invocations for some unknown purpose. Nobody said they have to be based on Cthulhu; Shub-Niggurath could easily be helping you to defend the forest so her young can live there, Yog-Sothoth might want to spread unholy knowledge, Hastur's a patron of the arts, Azathoth could be bleeding off a little excess power (you'd be working for a minion there), and Nyarlathotep...well, who knows what he's up to? To take a few popular modules, maybe he wants to keep Tiamat or Demogorgon from taking over the world so he can keep it for himself, maybe he wants Halaster out of Undermountain or the Tomb of Annihilation cleared so he can use it as a recreational playroom...
 

Possible Great Old One warlocks from fiction:

Davy Jones from the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise
Cenobites from Hellraiser
Gwendolyn Post from Buffy (rare first-level example)
The Mayor from Buffy (a clear case of Charisma based spells)
Lore from ST:TNG (Great Old One = The Borg)
Alex Krycek from the X-files
Any ranger from Mighty Morphin Power Rangers
 

Remathilis

Legend
Hey
I have some questions about Goo warlocks

What are some good examples of a Warlock in movies,TV, books?

Any advice on how to play one?

Can pact of the blade work with a goo warlock?

What alignment is associated with goo warlocks and their patrons?
The Elder Scrolls Online just released a chapter called Necrom, where the story is you are chosen by fate to save the threads of reality by Hermaeous Mora threatening all reality. So you sign a non-aggression pact with him to help him save reality and in turn he aids you with power and knowledge and his minions treat you as an ally. They even introduced a new class, the arcanist, which feels massively goolock Eldritch in nature.

Another good example would be the Magnus Archives, where head archivist Johnathan Simms ends up in the service of powerful beings and gains Eldritch power. Nothing else to avoid spoilers.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Borders on Fiend, but how many rock songs based on Appendix N material do we have written by the original author?


IMHO, Lovecraftian beings are unintelligible and unknowable. No reason they can't give you a magic sword (axe, staff, spear, spoon) and a bunch of invocations for some unknown purpose. Nobody said they have to be based on Cthulhu; Shub-Niggurath could easily be helping you to defend the forest so her young can live there, Yog-Sothoth might want to spread unholy knowledge, Hastur's a patron of the arts, Azathoth could be bleeding off a little excess power (you'd be working for a minion there), and Nyarlathotep...well, who knows what he's up to? To take a few popular modules, maybe he wants to keep Tiamat or Demogorgon from taking over the world so he can keep it for himself, maybe he wants Halaster out of Undermountain or the Tomb of Annihilation cleared so he can use it as a recreational playroom...
That song is 100% hexblade. It's literally about Elric.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Fleshing out my previous example, consider the protagonist of BG3 if you
start consuming mind flayer tadpoles on the guidance of the Emperor.
There's not a bargain per se, just an alien being encouraging you to trade your humanity for power one piece at a time. Eventually you will have to make a saving throw to resist crossing a major threshold, and the deeper you've gone, the harder it is.

Your "patron" claims to be motivated by fairly straightforward things. But
if you explore and pay attention, you will discover that the Emperor lies to you over and over and over. Listening to it is like listening to the Joker telling you how he got those scars; falsehoods behind falsehoods, without end. If you insist on liberating Orpheus, the Emperor will suddenly switch sides and join the Absolute. There is a book on mind flayers in the githyanki creche which says, in essence, "Ignore anything a mind flayer tells you, only pay attention to its actions," and that appears to be a warning aimed straight at the player.
 
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Hey
I have some questions about Goo warlocks

What are some good examples of a Warlock in movies,TV, books?

Any advice on how to play one?

Can pact of the blade work with a goo warlock?

What alignment is associated with goo warlocks and their patrons?
First as a sidenote see if your DM will let you play the OneD&D Playtest 7 version of the Warlock and especially of the Pact of the Great Old One. Pact of the Blade is OP from level 11 when you stack Thirsting Blade with Lifedrinker and the Spirit Shroud spell and the L11 boosts - but other than that everything's good.

If you can't then Pact of the Blade is known to be pretty weak without the Hexblade subclass (rather than GOOlock) because you're trying to use the wrong stats and have very little synergy.

Either way the warlock is arguably the squishiest class in the game at mid-high levels because, unlike sorcerers and wizards, they don't have first level spell slots to burn on defensive spells like Mage Armour (which you don't need if you can wear light armour, making it a waste of an invocation), Shield, and Absorb Elements. And being this squishy of course makes getting into melee combat a risky thing. Fiendish Vigour is a great defensive invocation at second level but doesn't scale as you level up.

The art to playing a warlock is to treat your spells as showstoppers (and pick ones that scale) while using your invocations for above and beyond basic uses most of the time. (Don't take anything that gives you a 1/day spell as an invocation). Invocations worth looking at are:
  • Eldritch Blast. There are ways of building a warlock that doesn't spam Eldritch Blast but (other than a OneD&D Bladelock) they require some very specific interactions.
    • Agonizing Blast; this is what makes Eldritch Blast actually good. Adding your charisma modifier to all bolts of the EB. It's more or less a must have by level 5.
    • There are other invocations to buff Eldritch Blast. But pushes, pulls, slows, and extra range are all DM dependent.
  • Extra non-Eldritch Blast Damage
    • Maddening Hex. This is nowhere near as good as it looks; first it requires the Hex spell (see my note on Concentration below) and second it requires a bonus action, meaning you must already have hexed your target on a previous turn.
    • Cloak of Flies. Eww. Create a damage aura around you. Most useful for bladelocks as they are the ones who want to be in melee; for anyone else this is closer to a defence.
  • Illusions; with their ability to cast illusions at will only a specialist illusionist wizard can come close to challenging a warlock for mastery of illusions
    • Mask of Many Faces; the ability to change your appearance at will is far more powerful than as a first level spell and can allow for shenanigans and farces where you walk behind a wall and come out appearing to be someone else
    • Misty Visions; Silent Image as an at will ability is just useful for games, for throwing up doors that appear to be closed, and for other shenanigans.
    • One With Shadow; the invisibility power is too restricted in the PHB and very nice with the restrictions removed in the playtest
    • Master of Myriad Forms is ... not as good as it looks, but lets you shapeshift. It's a concentration ability. Way too high level in the PHB but useful in the playtest.
  • Defenses; as mentioned the Warlock is squishy
    • Fiendish Vigour doesn't scale; 5thp as an action is great at L2 and useless at L12
    • Armour of Shadows; one point more AC than simple studded leather just isn't worth an invocation
    • Tomb of Levistus; giving up your turn is a huge cost.
  • Sight. A lot of invocations deal with giving the warlock better vision of the world.
    • Devil's Sight; the ability to see through any darkness is pretty useful
    • Eldritch Sight; Detect Magic at will is surprisingly useful as you can have it up all the time and therefore be proactively ready for a whole lot of things whereas the wizard needs a 10 minute ritual to have it last the next 10 minutes. Campaign specific
    • Eyes of the Rune Keeper is just Comprehend Languages; probably should be skipped
    • Gaze of Two Minds - without the playtest is little more than a Message cantrip; with it there are shenanigans as you can also cast from e.g. your fighter's position.
    • Ghostly Gaze - looking through walls is great.
    • Witch Sight - seeing through illusions (inc. invisibility) and shapechanges is normally situational, but amazing in a few campaigns.
    • Visions of Distant Realms - Arcane Eye at will is incredible but you get it late
  • Communication; the GOOlock is already telepathic. This extends it.
    • Beast Speech - speaking with animals to either be a druid or fairytale princess.
    • Whispers of the Grave - and now they don't have to be alive to talk with them
  • Movement; these really are too high level to be useful in the PHB version but have been made sensible in the playtest
    • Ascendant Step; Levitate isn't fly but does solve a lot of problems
    • Otherworldly Leap; in the PHB Jump is an awful spell and this is directly competing with Otherworldly leap. In the playtest Jump has been buffed and
    • Gift of the Depths; breathing under water (plus helping others) and swimming like a fish. Where is your campaign set?
    • Relentless Hex; only good for Pact of the Blade/Hexblade warlocks to teleport after their target
  • Increasing your pact boon
    • Pact of the Tome: Book of Ancient Secrets for ritual casting
    • Pact of the Blade: Thirsting Blade for two attacks, Lifedrinker for extra damage
    • Pact of the Chain: Investment of the Chain Master to boost your familiar, Voice of the Chain Master for ridiculousness
Of course you can't have many of them. But there's a lot of good stuff there. As mentioned don't take anything that is a spell you can only use once a day.

And that's how you play a warlock as a party member; you use either Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast or your Pact of the Blade to reach a good combat baseline, can throw high level spells like a primary caster when you really need to bring it, and you use your utility invocations to add something at will no other party member can do that's a signature ability. The invocations you pick have a lot of influence.

Oh, and warlocks are spellcasters that take a little more time to pick their spells between levels but are much faster at using them in play. The key thing is that warlocks only have a single spell level at a time - so pick spells that level up with you (e.g. by adding targets) and try to have a wide spectrum of spells; you only need one spell of any given type because you only have one spell level. No real need to have both Fireball and Hunger of Hadar.

Finally take care with your Concentration choices. With (good) Invocations it doesn't matter that much; you can only have one Concentration invocation up at a time but can switch between them freely because you can recast without cost (so if you have the Levitate and Silent Image Invocations you can always use the one you need, just not both at once). With spells this can be harder because spell slots cost resources. This doesn't matter so much with spells like Hunger of Hadar because once it's done it's done - but Hex is concentration and lasts a long time, so if you then try to throw a Silent Image you lose the Hex spell. This is why I don't rate Hex as highly as many do.
 


Personally, I think the Shadows are really obviously Fiend-type beings rather than GOO. They aren't even slightly incomprehensible (nor are the Vorlons), they just couch all of their really quite plain motives behind seventeen unnecessary layers of metaphor.
You might not be in tune with the majority here. Or JMS. https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow
Note:
I don't have my copy of the script book available to me right now, but if someone else does there are discussions in there that back the Shadows / Lovecraft connection.
Honestly IMO you are both right. Cosmologically the Vorlons and the Shadows are pretty explicitly Great Old Ones while the Shadows behave like Fiends (and the Vorlons are only slightly more complex). Babylon 5 has a different cosmology from default 5e.

And going into the specifics of the setting I absolutely would stat Lyta Alexander and even Bester as GOOlocks (with Aberrant Minds being the only alternatives) while the Shadows aversion to psionics means Morden would better be represented as a Fiendlock with Dark One's Luck, Command, and Suggestion.
 

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