D&D 5E Warlocks and Magic Initate (Warlock)?

[SailorNash]

Random question that came to mind a moment ago. How exactly does Magic Initiate interact with Warlocks and Pact Magic, RAW versus RAI? I don't have my books on hand...mostly just a thought exercise, plus checking for loopholes. Warning that cheese-mode is to follow.

The feat gives you a first-level casting of a spell, once per day, using that class's spellcasting ability. This keeps Wizards from adding Cure Various Wounds to their spellbooks, or others from spamming Shield easily. Makes sense so far.

If taken for your own class, you can use your existing spell slots to cast the new spell. Kind of a bonus for staying within your own class at the expense of versatility, due to that individual class's Spellcasting (or Pact Magic) rules. Gives an extra spell known for classes like Warlock or Sorcerer, a free scribed spell for Wizards, and an extra prepared for Clerics similar to their Domain. High-level Warlocks could therefore choose to cast this a few extra times as a 5th level version, using their existing spell slots if they like.

Pact Magic says that all of your slots are the same level. Shouldn't affect multiclassed Spellcasting as that is a separate named mechanic for other classes, but the wording for Warlock spells may be important here.

"Specific-over-general" could be used to make sure the Magic Initiate casting is once per day, and at the lowest level. Presumably the spell's lowest/original level, not the Warlock's lowest/highest/only spell level of 5th. This makes sense, as a non-casting class by contrast would have a zeroth spellcasting level otherwise.

Also, while it behaves like a single first-level slot, you don't technically get an extra slot...just a free casting of the learned spell once per day using that feat. This would keep it from refreshing with your Pact Magic spells, and also from being able to "downcast" any of your existing spells as that free once-per-day spell. (Upcasting the newly-learned spell again using existing slots is OK, but it is a one-way street and only for that same spell.)

However, you do have the option at each new Warlock level of replacing any Warlock spell with another of your choosing, for any level that you have spell slots. What happens if you replace your Magic Initiate (Warlock) spell for another on your Warlock class list, possibly as high as 5th level? In that case, you don't have to worry about the free upcasting...the "lowest level" is still the spell level, now 5th, cast once per day using that feat. It's an odd workaround, but seems that it would be allowed RAW. Other classes have added benefits when taking Magic Initiate for their own class; by the same token, Warlocks also allow it to grow with them.

You can only take the feat once per class, meaning that you could only choose Warlock once and thus only have one replaceable Warlock spell. But you could potentially take it for Sorcerer and Bard while learning spells they also share with the Warlock list. This is more of a gray area...you could argue that this technically is a Sorcerer or Bard spell, though it's hard to deny that it's also a Warlock spell. This could perhaps let you pull this trick up to twice more, in addition to allowing the normal upcasting rules (though specifically calling it a Sorcerer or Bard spell should be enough to close it off here).

Just a random thought. I've seen threads about taking your own class, and about adding a different class's spell onto your own list, but not picking a spell shared amongst casters using the same attribute. And regardless of the spell being 1st level when it was learned, by RAW it appears that Warlocks could replace this as with any other Warlock spell, given that the Magic Initiate feat isn't a slot (to prevent Pact Magic abuse) but is a free casting of your learned spell at it's lowest level (allowable by Warlock spell retraining rules).

 

[mellored]

Hmm...

In addition, choose one 1st-level spell from that same list. You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again.

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the warlock spells you know and replace it with another spell from the warlock spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.


I don't think it works.

Magic initiate only allows you to cast "that spell", which is "one 1-st level".


That said, it seems like you can replace the spell, get a new spell, and still cast "that spell". So you can still cast it 1/day, and get an extra known spells.
Though i see perfectly reasonable argument that you can't cast a spell that you no longer know.


This also applies to sorcerers.

 

[pdegan2814]

Yeah, the wording is a bit sticky, but if I were a DM I'd probably rule that the 1st-level spell learned via Magic Initiate is immutable. You take the feat to learn THAT spell, not gain a generic 1-spell increase to the number of spells you can know at any given time.

 

[SailorNash]

That's an interesting reading. Not that I necessarily disagree. That interpretation would net you at least two new spells learned ("that spell" plus what you traded it for) by taking the feat. However, if you don't actually lose "that spell" when you trade it in, it's still known by virtue of the feat to cash in again. As it's then a non-expendable currency, you could net a free spell PER LEVEL by continuing this. Though you still only have one free first-level cast and could only cast the better spells with your normal limit of slots.

The part I focus in on instead is the word "replace", meaning that the new selection fully takes the place of the other. You now know the new spell, by virtue of the same learning mechanism as before, but the spell itself has been replaced by a better one in the same spot.

(By the same token, the word "replace" is the only thing that suggests you actually lose the original spell. It does mean that you forget that spell and can no longer cast it, but only because you now cast the new spell in its place.)

"That spell" could mean something that was chosen and locked-in at feat selection, but broken apart it looks more like it's only referring to "the thing that was learned". The first line says to choose a spell. The second line, taken separately, only says that you can cast it at it's lowest level (not necessarily "first level"). If that spell is ever relearned, the new spell and level would apply.

Should work for Bard as well. I forget what I originally saw in Warlock...either I had another abuse in mind that tied directly to Pact Magic and simply forgot, or I talked myself out of my own question. Though in the case of Sorcerers and Bards, it'd actually be worse as they're full Level 9 casters whereas Warlocks only have Level 5 plus Arcanum.

 

[Z. H. Darkstar]

If anyone tried to pull this at one of my tables, I would cast Firebolt on their character sheet...with my lighter...

I'm normally okay with people using cheese combos in my games. However, there's a big difference between sharp cheddar(Swashbuckler+GFB)/Gouda(eldritch spam Sorclock)/Muenster(Moon Druid+Monk/Barbarian) and this pile of stinky Limburger.