Was Gandalf Just A 5th Level Magic User?

This article from Dragon Magazine, back in 1977, is likely very familiar to many of you (feel free to yawn - this item isn't for you!) However, there are many newer fans of D&D who don't even remember Dragon Magazine, let alone issues from nearly 40 years ago. In the article, Bill Seligman posits that Gandalf was merely a 5th level magic-user. Given Cubicle 7's recent announcement about an official Middle Earth setting for D&D, it seems like a nostalgia piece worth revisiting.

Some folks I hear discussing this topic these days take the position that Gandalf is actually a paladin. Certainly "wizards" in Tolkien's works aren't the same magic-missile-throwing folks as in regular D&D; in fact there are only five wizards in the whole of Middle Earth - and at least one of them (the 7th Doctor) is very clearly a druid.

What do you think? Is Gandalf a 5th level magic-user? What about in 5th Edition, given the upcoming Middle Earth release? I'm sure Cubicle 7 will tells for certain this summer, but until then...

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

This portion is about the only portion I really disagree with, though I'm not so sure he was right about the armies of elder days being useless.

"A host of Elves in armor of the Elder Days" isn't necessarily the same thing as ALL the forces of the First Age elves. It could mean a Third Age-size force with First Age class equipment.

(And the First Age elves lost against Morgoth's armies anyway.)

Sauron isn't Morgoth, even with the ring.

"Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First." - Morgoth's Ring ("Notes on motives in the Silmarillion")

Sauron was certainly defeatable in direct conflict by First- or Second-Age power levels, and defeated (with the Ring at the end of the Second Age by Elendil, Gil-galad and Isildur; and by Huan in the First Age).

But in both cases they were able to confront Sauron directly. There's no teleportation in Arda - an army would have to carve through Sauron's armies first.

"A host of Elves in armor of the Elder Days" would be superior one-to-one to Sauron's orc and human forces, but Sauron has overwhelming numbers, as well as things like trolls and Nazgul.

The Nazgul might not be much use against people like Glorfindel, but I think only those who had actually been in Valinor had that "Unseen-world presence". The Wood Elves in the Hobbit couldn't see Bilbo with the Ring, so they didn't.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Back to the original topic...

Level 5 wizards? Sure, but give him credit for swinging a sword and staff too! So level 5/1 wizard fighter? Perhaps more fighter levels?

In 5E terms, I'd say he's multiclass, yeah. Probably wizard or sorcerer 6/ranger 2 or something (so he can 'speak to animals' or 'animal friendship' Shadowfax).

That limits him to 3rd level spells but he's significantly more powerful than a pure 5th level wizard.

One of Saruman's big things is his compelling voice, so he might be a wizard or sorcerer/bard multiclass.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Personally my opinion on the movies is mixed (depending on which movie we are talking about), with the extended editions IMO providing better "Tolkien Experience". However, if asked how to put Tom Bombadil into any adaptation i would be hard pressed to make a call. Except for the Barrow Downs, there is very little you can do with him on the screen. Unless you are making the TV Show or a mini series.....

I love the barrow downs! What a great part of the book. It would have been awesome to see an the screen, in no small part because it's the first time we see Frodo doing something heroic. One of my big gripes with the movies is the changes to Frodo's character. He's much wimpier in the films.

 

[Maxperson]

"A host of Elves in armor of the Elder Days" isn't necessarily the same thing as ALL the forces of the First Age elves. It could mean a Third Age-size force with First Age class equipment.

That's a good point. It could be read that way, too.

(And the First Age elves lost against Morgoth's armies anyway.)

For the most part, they destroyed Morgoth's armies, but attrition got the better of them and he ultimately won.

"Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First." - Morgoth's Ring ("Notes on motives in the Silmarillion")

I think he was roughly equal in relative strength in the Second Age. He was beat by the Numenoreans outright. He walked out and surrendered because he knew he couldn't match their might, and the last alliance of elves and men defeated him and his armies, but with great cost. The First Age elves had the same range of difficulties with Morgoth, at least until the end when attrition made it impossible for them to win and the Valar came to help.

In the Third Age he was greater in relative power than Morgoth was in the First Age.

"A host of Elves in armor of the Elder Days" would be superior one-to-one to Sauron's orc and human forces, but Sauron has overwhelming numbers, as well as things like trolls and Nazgul.

A host of elves in the armor of the elder days could beat trolls, too. The Nazgul would be easily handled by Glorfindel, Galadriel, Elrond and the other remaining first age elves. Really, the issue was Sauron combined with those other creatures.

The Nazgul might not be much use against people like Glorfindel, but I think only those who had actually been in Valinor had that "Unseen-world presence". The Wood Elves in the Hobbit couldn't see Bilbo with the Ring, so they didn't.

That's true, but all elves of the First Age, even those who have never been to Valinor are much greater and much more powerful than the elves of the Second Age, who were more powerful than those of the Third Age. Thingol never went to Valinor and he was mighty as all get out.

 

[Maxperson]

I love the barrow downs! What a great part of the book. It would have been awesome to see an the screen, in no small part because it's the first time we see Frodo doing something heroic. One of my big gripes with the movies is the changes to Frodo's character. He's much wimpier in the films.

So was Aragorn. In the books he was a strong leader of men and wanted to be the king. In the movies he was wishy washy and fairly weak as a leader, wondering if he wanted the crown.

 

[BookBarbarian]

So was Aragorn. In the books he was a strong leader of men and wanted to be the king. In the movies he was wishy washy and fairly weak as a leader, wondering if he wanted the crown.

Very true. I guess it added "drama" to make these characters weaker? I never got it. I did like that after Gandalf Falls in Moria, Aragorn questions whether he should continue on to Minas Tirith as planned or continue with Frodo to Mount Doom. Thankfully a wise Frodo took that decision out of his hands, but that conflict in the character was interesting. I also liked how he was much more rude & sarcastic to the Hobbits and Boromir in the books. It showed another side to his personality.

On the topic of the thread. I've never seen Gandalf as PC. As an NPC I would simply use one of the statblocks for Angels in the MM and and spellcasting. Specifically the spells he seems to use in the Hobbit and LotR. I would probably use the Deva and swap out the Mace attacks for Longsword (Glamdring) attacks.

If I wanted to build a character inspired by Gandalf I would go Lore Bard, getting longsword proficiency from race, perhaps refluff High Elf. This would pretty well represent his ability to inspire others to great deeds. Which was his main purpose in Middle Earth, to enable the Peoples/Races to free themselves from Sauron with as little divine help as possible.

 

[BookBarbarian]

snip... Thingol never went to Valinor and he was mighty as all get out.

He did actually along with Finwe and Ingwe, but he never returned after meeting Melian.

 

[Michael McGuire]

He mentions a plural of lightning bolts and fireballs. Surely this would mean that Gandalf was at least 6th level to allow him to cast two 3rd level spells.

THAT is a really good point. in battling the Wargs in Hobbit, he cast numerous fireballs and I might argue that it was the Meteor Swarm spell (9th) instead.

 

[Marandahir]

Very true. I guess it added "drama" to make these characters weaker? I never got it. I did like that after Gandalf Falls in Moria, Aragorn questions whether he should continue on to Minas Tirith as planned or continue with Frodo to Mount Doom. Thankfully a wise Frodo took that decision out of his hands, but that conflict in the character was interesting. I also liked how he was much more rude & sarcastic to the Hobbits and Boromir in the books. It showed another side to his personality.

On the topic of the thread. I've never seen Gandalf as PC. As an NPC I would simply use one of the statblocks for Angels in the MM and and spellcasting. Specifically the spells he seems to use in the Hobbit and LotR. I would probably use the Deva and swap out the Mace attacks for Longsword (Glamdring) attacks.

If I wanted to build a character inspired by Gandalf I would go Lore Bard, getting longsword proficiency from race, perhaps refluff High Elf. This would pretty well represent his ability to inspire others to great deeds. Which was his main purpose in Middle Earth, to enable the Peoples/Races to free themselves from Sauron with as little divine help as possible.

Aragorn struggles with these questions in the books, too. But Tolkien couldn't figure out how to reconcile the strong and wise leader he wanted to guide the Fellowship of the Ring and the Grey Company with the troubled ranger who wanted nothing of his royal heritage. Thus, he put most of those personal struggles into the appendices, where we can read them in "Of Aragorn and Arwen."

As we see with Arwen's scenes in the movies, most are directly lifted from that appendix story. The movies (smartly, in my opinion) moved his struggles into the forefront of the story to successfully weave him as a compelling secondary protagonist rather than just the war leader who may be compelling in terms of physical struggles but lacked a compelling interior struggle in the context of the narrative.

I should also say that, post Gandalf's fall in Moria until Gandalf's return in Fangorn Forest, Aragorn has a very compelling storyline in the books where he doesn't know what to do, because he always was relying on Gandalf's wisdom and guidance. The struggles he faces in leadership there really are a gem that Tolkien could have expanded into a wider character arc. This is one area where, I believe, the movies actually outdid the characterization of the books by seamlessly integrating the aspects of Aragorn's struggles into one cohesive narrative.

Now don't get me wrong, the books are far and away better works than the movies. No question. There were a lot of missteps and problems and key missing elements. Whole messages from the book were lost in the translation. That's because the movies are the interpretation of one team of filmmakers. There will be more interpretations in the future. But I do believe that Tolkien has areas where he couldn't quite figure out what to do to make the stories as perfect as they could be. And a movie is a chance to offer potential fixes without staining the original published book.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Aragorn struggles with these questions in the books, too. But Tolkien couldn't figure out how to reconcile the strong and wise leader he wanted to guide the Fellowship of the Ring and the Grey Company with the troubled ranger who wanted nothing of his royal heritage. Thus, he put most of those personal struggles into the appendices, where we can read them in "Of Aragorn and Arwen."

As we see with Arwen's scenes in the movies, most are directly lifted from that appendix story. The movies (smartly, in my opinion) moved his struggles into the forefront of the story to successfully weave him as a compelling secondary protagonist rather than just the war leader who may be compelling in terms of physical struggles but lacked a compelling interior struggle in the context of the narrative.

I should also say that, post Gandalf's fall in Moria until Gandalf's return in Fangorn Forest, Aragorn has a very compelling storyline in the books where he doesn't know what to do, because he always was relying on Gandalf's wisdom and guidance. The struggles he faces in leadership there really are a gem that Tolkien could have expanded into a wider character arc. This is one area where, I believe, the movies actually outdid the characterization of the books by seamlessly integrating the aspects of Aragorn's struggles into one cohesive narrative.

Now don't get me wrong, the books are far and away better works than the movies. No question. There were a lot of missteps and problems and key missing elements. Whole messages from the book were lost in the translation. That's because the movies are the interpretation of one team of filmmakers. There will be more interpretations in the future. But I do believe that Tolkien has areas where he couldn't quite figure out what to do to make the stories as perfect as they could be. And a movie is a chance to offer potential fixes without staining the original published book.

Hmm, Let's see. At around 20 Aragorn is told his ancestry and meets Arwen and is smitten by her. Over the 20 years or so he becomes a victorious Captain in both Rohan and Gondor. While in Lorien he then meets Arwen again. The fall in love and pledge themselves to one another. Elrond finds out and the next time he sees Aragorn tells him that the only Man (mortal) he will allow his daughter to marry is the king of the west.

I don't see anywhere that Aragorn wanted nothing to do with his parentage. If anything we is completely committing to becoming the King of the west if only to marry his love.

However, he seems to also be aware that victory over Sauron will not come through strength of arms. He does not have Narsil reforged into Anduril until the One ring is found. Did he come by this knowledge from his own time fighting against the forces of the enemy? From his close counsel with Gandalf? Both? We don't know for sure.

I find the character very compelling for many reasons, in no small part due to his doubts about himself, but nowhere do I see a rejection of his ancestry.