Was Pendragon the proto-Story Now game?

[Vinicius Lessa]

Hi! Old time luker but only now decided to post.

Genuine question in title.

I'm a big fan of PbtA and other stuff that came from the Forge days, and I see that Stafford's Pendragon seemed to present many of those same sensibilities back in the 80s, albeit mixed into a more "conventional" RPG framework for the time. In other words, it seems to me that, while the book didn't assume the PCs' personal issues would take center stage during play, it at least gave that stuff more importance than was usual for the time, even coming up with a great framework in the form of the Virtues and Passions rules. To the point that it seems easy to ignore the more conventional stuff (like the overarching, pre-plotted Great Pendragon Campaign) and run the game more like a story now/narrativist/PbtA game, with small adjustments.

Thoughts?

P.S: forgive me is my usage of those terms ("story now") is not completely acurate, it's a long time I read those essays and honestly, I don't know if I ever grokked it. Lol. Feel free to correct me if you will. I just see similarities between the style of play PbtA adopt and what Pendragon seemed to aim for at the time.


(a shout out for @pemerton , @Campbell and @hawkeyefan , which are people I see may be interested in the topic)

 

[Vinicius Lessa]

No one? No one see anything in common between Pendragon and the kind of playstyle PbtA pushes for these days? No vestiges of narrativism at all?

Only I see it?

 

[hawkeyefan]

No one? No one see anything in common between Pendragon and the kind of playstyle PbtA pushes for these days? No vestiges of narrativism at all?

Only I see it?

I’ve not yet ever played Pendragon, so I’m afraid that I don’t have much to offer. My guess, based on what I know of the game and Stafford’s general approach to design is that you’re certainly onto something.

I’ve seen folks try to downplay the innovations of Apocalypse World, and when they do it usually involves pointing to how “none” of it is new, and Pendragon has come up as one of the games that include elements used in AW.

It’s not an argument I give a whole lot of merit… mostly because it’s needlessly negative… but I do think Baker drew inspiration from other games, and Stafford’s were likely among them.

I think @pemerton has had experience with it, though I think he prefers Prince Valiant, also by Stafford.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

No one? No one see anything in common between Pendragon and the kind of playstyle PbtA pushes for these days? No vestiges of narrativism at all?

Only I see it?

I would recommend reading The Elusive Shift (John Peterson) if you want to get into the history of the hobby. For example, the West Coast and Science Fiction wings in the 70s were playing heavily narrative games that were very similar to what we later saw with Pendragon

Greg Stafford is important not just for the Pendragon design, but also because he was co-lead on Ghostbusters RPG, which was the game in terms of pioneering some groundbreaking d6 mechanics (which later became the WEG D6 system).

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think you're probably right that the focus on generational stories and the stories of a whole kingdom over one individual knight does put a major emphasis on story, predating, I think, any other game with similar ambitions. Of course, the game's age means it is much more fiddly and mechanistic than modern story games.

 

[dersplotter]

To the point that it seems easy to ignore the more conventional stuff (like the overarching, pre-plotted Great Pendragon Campaign) and run the game more like a story now/narrativist/PbtA game, with small adjustments.

Thoughts?

I played in a couple of long-running Pendragon games through the late 80s and early to mid-90s. Unfortunately, my memories of the actual play may not be accurate enough to compare with more recent game design.

I do remember my knight socialising and getting drunk on the day before his wedding, failing a 'chaste' roll and ending up in bed with someone who wasn't his bride. These days you could look at that like a move, a failed roll and a GM move.

On the other hand, my memory is that there weren't any ramifications - it was funny and it was colourful. But it didn't create a new situation for my knight. I got married as planned, and carried on doing knightly things.

Using just that snippet as an example, I can maybe see in restrospect the point in the OP. That may simply be because Pendragon was fairly innovative in its own right. Still, no-one I know, undertstood how to PbtA until it came along.

 

[soviet]

I think the answer is no. Pendragon as I remember it features these many elements of an Arthurian story but uses them in a simulation of genre rather than as a tool for player-led exploration of premise (narrativism). Thst is to say, if the dice determine whether your character's lust for the Queen overrides his duty to the King, rather than this being a decision made by the player as the main focus of the gameplay, then it isn't story now.

 

[Aldarc]

I think you're probably right that the focus on generational stories and the stories of a whole kingdom over one individual knight does put a major emphasis on story, predating, I think, any other game with similar ambitions. Of course, the game's age means it is much more fiddly and mechanistic than modern story games.

There will be a new edition, though I'm not sure how much that changes things up.

It would definitely be interesting if someone took the ideas of Pendragon and converted the Arthurian Romance genre to a more modern story game system.

 

[Campbell]

Pendragon, Ars Magica and Vampire are all antecedents of Story Now games, but mostly as something to react to. They form an important first step in that they had mechanics that were fundamentally about who your characters were as people, but lacked player provided premise for play and were about reinforcing the conception of the character instead of finding out who the character was through play. I'm not sure Sorcerer gets made without Pendragon, Ars Magica and Vampire, but they are not proto-Story Now games in my opinion.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Well, now I want to see radically different takes on Vampire and Ars Magica.