Weapons of Legacy

[gamerprinter]

I am looking at using a kind of Legacy Weapon styled feature in my Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting, I call Ancestral Items.

It requires the expenditure of a single feat to access, as well as an available Ancestral Item passed down to you through your family. It cannot be purchased, as the secrets of its crafting are long lost. However, it is not only weapons, but many types of items including sandles, obi-belts, folding fans and more.

Once a power is activated, the next power is not available until at least 2 levels in progression beyond. Despite having the feat, these powers do not automatically become empowered, it requires an event trigger to activate. Event triggers become progressively more challenging as powers progress. An example might be a Rogue's Kukri requiring a slaying in single combat with an enemy of at least equal hit dice is required to activate the first power.

These items hold a progression of powers, for weapons it is bonuses to weapons up to +5 then special weapon properties and other arcane effects. For magic items they aid in both combat and non-combat situations appropriate for the class they are designed for.

These items possess some of the Ki and spirit of your ancestors, just as you are passing your own ki and spirit into the weapons and items your character bears now.

You can't buy an Ancestral Item from a shop, and since items are tied to your bloodline, items of your heritage do not work in the hands of someone not related to you. These are items exclusively to the setting.

Also being a Japanese inspired setting, one's honor is tied to your ancestral item as well. Those with low honor can only access the lowest level of powers. It takes great honor to access the items most powerful features.

GP

 

[Chronologist]

gemerprinter, that's a good idea, if a bit restrictive. The flavor is there, but there seem to be way too many activation clauses to make it work. Unless, of course, the item abilities are free, at which point it seems fine to me.

pawsplay, I played a character with Vow of Poverty one time, a Favored Soul who shenaniganed into Radiant Servant of Pelor. I think OVw of Poverty works it the DM is either standard or generous with the gold and magic items, but that's a debate for another time. I DO recognize the potential for grakage that Vow of Poverty has.

Sometime I'd like to make an Artificer with Vow of Poverty... that would be interesting.

 

[Tauric]

Alright, at the risk of derailing my own thread, what exactly is Vow of Poverty? Where does it come from, what does it do, why is it bad?

I don't have lots of extra cash for peripheral rulebooks, which I why I was asking about Weapons of Legacy, so I assume VoP is in some rulebook I haven't looked at, but everyone else seems to know about it, and most seem to hate it, so it has piqued my curiosity.

 

[Chronologist]

Vow of Poverty is from the Book of Exalted Deeds (Book of Exalted Cheese, for its ridiculously powerful rules). Vow of Poverty is a feat that gives insanely good benefits over time, though you cannot own any items besides basic clothing and (maybe) a club. Of course, donating your gold to a worth cause, such as your Cohort from the Leadership feat is perfectly alright. The feat is very, very broken, mostly because it turns any caster or god forbid Monk into a massive powerhouse with ridiculously high AC, saves, and ability scores.

If you know someone with the Book of Exalted Deeds, it's worth taking a look at to see what kind of things are generally unbalanced to give to player. If you want to look at other highly unbalanced classes/features, check out the Book of Nine Swords, which lets you play a character with full attack bonus, d12 hit dice, pretty much perfect saves... and 9th level spellcasting with infinite uses per day. And they're considered the balanced class in that book.

 

[pawsplay]

Alright, at the risk of derailing my own thread, what exactly is Vow of Poverty? Where does it come from, what does it do, why is it bad?

As already pointed out, it's from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It is simultaneously too good and too weak. It is too good because it gives you the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of gold pieces in magical item abilities that basically mean your character doesn't have to worry about whole categories of challenges. On the other hand, even with those bonuses, it's still pretty weak when it comes to actually being able to do the things characters usually do, such as fight, cast spells, etc. It's an accounting nightmare in that it starts giving you bonus feats starting at the level at which you take it, which also means its an optimization eyesore, since if you can somehow survive (or are starting a high level campaign!) you want it at the lowest possible level. Flavor-wise, it doens't work, since the character is restricted from owning such items as a holy symbol or a deity's favored weapon (if not a simple weapon).

So, now that's out of the way...

 

[gamerprinter]

gemerprinter, that's a good idea, if a bit restrictive. The flavor is there, but there seem to be way too many activation clauses to make it work. Unless, of course, the item abilities are free, at which point it seems fine to me.

pawsplay, I played a character with Vow of Poverty one time, a Favored Soul who shenaniganed into Radiant Servant of Pelor. I think OVw of Poverty works it the DM is either standard or generous with the gold and magic items, but that's a debate for another time. I DO recognize the potential for grakage that Vow of Poverty has.

Sometime I'd like to make an Artificer with Vow of Poverty... that would be interesting.

Yes, because the items are inheritances from their families, the items cost nothing, yet at the same time are priceless.

Edit: I now think you meant cost to activating powers. There are no GP nor XP expenditure in activating a power. To me the concept of paying more money or life experience to activate a power is dumb. Ancestral Items are linked to the bloodline, and your effort to playing a hero or other thing that brings your family honor is what really matters.

GP

 

[billd91]

There are some interesting ideas with Weapons of Legacy, not the least of which is having an item that gets more powerful as the wielder gets more powerful. I liked the idea of there being a series of rituals (or events) associated with the item's history that would unlock its powers. But I agree with most of the critics, the "balancing" penalties were pretty stupid and pointlessly metagamey.

But I'm not fond of the solution of charging the PC for the equivalent of the powers as they advance them. If you're going to do that, why bother with legacy weapons? Why not just have them get them enchanted by someone with the right feat in the first place? The feel of doing so places us right back with standard magic item purchase and procurement in 3e D&D, and that's not where I wanted to be.

What I would do, incorporating the basics of Weapons of Legacy, is keep the rituals and rather than give them the bonus feat associated with the ritual, charge them a feat slot for it. By the time the weapon's at its apex abilities, they've invested 3 feats in it which seems a fair cost to me to have a powerful magic item with several abilities. I also think this idea does a better job of perserving the feel of the character's intense personal relationship with the weapon than just taking chunks of cash away.

 

[pawsplay]

I actually like Unearthed Arcana's PrC based version pretty well, however, it's a lot of work for the GM because each progression has to be designed sort of ad hoc.

 

[frankthedm]

Of course, donating your gold to a worth cause, such as your Cohort from the Leadership feat is perfectly alright.

Actually it's not...

BoED, on Poverty and treasure p30-31
Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other parry members get bigger shares of treasure! An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial The majority of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale thereof) should be donated to the needy, either directly (equipping rescued captives with gear taken from their fallen captors) or indirectly (making a large donation to a temple noted for it’s work among the poor.

The feat is very, very broken, mostly because it turns any caster

Clerics won't have their divine focus which is not strictly covered by Eschew Components, Wizards won't have their spellbook either IIRC.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Actually it's not...Clerics won't have their divine focus which is not strictly covered by Eschew Components

In the Pathfinder context, clerics can take the trait that gives them their holy symbol as a birthmark.

I haven't used -- or seen used -- Vow of Poverty in play, but my group (finally) shed the "bound by the RAW" shackles that 3E somehow talked us into wearing, so I don't think it'd be a problem for us. Given that BoED is even more optional than most 3E material, and even clearly marked for mature players, the folks it's intended for can probably make it work fine.