We're Finally Mainstream! Now What?

ICv2's recent announcement that hobby games have become "mainstream" heralds a new age for role-playing games. How did this happen and why should gamers care?

ICv2's recent announcement that hobby games have become "mainstream" heralds a new age for role-playing games. How did this happen and why should gamers care?
[h=3]How Did We Get Here?[/h]Role-playing games have steadily been increasing in popularity and media attention. Several factors are likely at play, ranging from older players returning to the hobby (as evidenced by the Old School Renaissance ), to an increased media awareness of role-playing games (Stranger Things being one example), to a wave of nostalgia as 40-somethings now have enough buying power to introduce their kids to the hobby.

The rise of video and podcasting has also introduced gaming to a much larger population on the Internet. Conventions are more popular than ever before -- to the point that they have difficulty keeping up with the demand. Wizards of the Coast has released a new Open Game License and a distribution platform via DM's Guild. It helps that Dungeons & Dragons has also broadened its audience, with millennials (ages 25 to 34) the largest group, followed closely ages 35 to 44 and 18 to 24 — 30% of which are female.
[h=3]Six Million an Hour?[/h]According to WOTC, six million people are playing D&D at any given hour. UPDATE: I asked Nathan Stewart to clarify this number. This was his response:

There was more context given, wasn't supposed to mean every hour, but yes the aggregate was videogames/boardgames/TRPG (not novels)

The "per hour" seems to be egregious, and is inclusive of D&D-branded video games and board games. Ethan Gilsdorf, author of Fantasy Freaks and Gaming Geeks, said :

For those in the know, for those who follow popular culture, the game has gained a kind of legendary status. It's almost like a badge of honor. People who used to play D&D in the 70s, 80s, and 90s are now reaping the benefits.

The data backs up the RPG renaissance, as per ICv2:

The number of people playing hobby games, the number of people shopping at game stores, the number of stores, and exposure of hobby games at major retailers were all up in 2016, reflecting the now-mainstream nature of the hobby.

Mike Mearls, senior manager of D&D research and design, confirmed ICv2's findings:
We're seeing a bigger audience than we've seen in a very long time—in decades. It's so easy to cast this idea that technology will be the death of D&D, but it's been really interesting to see how that has been absolutely incorrect.
[h=3]Will the Bubble Burst?[/h]Rob Salkowitz at ICv2 predicts that mainstream geek culture will affect other industries, as they take notes on what works for geek fans and apply it to other forms of fandom like sports :

It’s been clear for a while that the fan convention template that we’ve known since the 1960s is fraying at the edges as geek culture becomes mainstream consumer culture. On one hand, this means outside players who smell the money are making their play for the fan audience, with increasingly mixed results. But on the other, it means that longtime convention organizers within the space are looking to push their shows into neighboring territory.

Salkowitz calls this "peak geek" and it has consequences beyond geek circles:

The danger is that, even with a fresh infusion of smart nerds in strategic spots, mainstream media is still more liable than their niche counterparts to credit know-nothings on an equal basis with informed sources, misinterpret nuances, impose faulty narrative frameworks and just plain get stuff wrong when it comes to covering the business of pop culture--especially if they are taking their cues from some of the more excitable fever swamps of online fandom. The result is a much more treacherous environment for the big companies and big name creators unaccustomed to attention from these quarters.

For tabletop games, the primary concern is that eight straight years of growth is unsustainable:

For 2017, there’s widespread concern that the number of releases is going to be greater than the market can support. "I think we're facing some challenges coming into the new year, just on the basis of the breadth of releases," one distributor told us.

But for the moment, things have never looked better for gaming. As more and more media launches -- from videos to streaming to podcasts to television shows to movies -- geek culture will become so normalized that it may well lose some of its identity. Chris Perkins, principal D&D designer, summed up the current state of affairs:

Geek culture and nerd culture is now just culture.

Whether or not that is a good or bad thing will be determined by us.

Mike "Talien" Tresca is a freelance game columnist, author, communicator, and a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to
http://amazon.com. You can follow him at Patreon.
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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Hussar

Legend
Of course there is a difference between print and film, how is that even a question?

It seems like just the people who either dont know or dont care what the differences are that are fine with lumping everything together. I can assure you that when the guys turn up for our DnD game tonight they will not be expecting to either be playing Neverwinter Nights or watching the DnD movie.

My group too. And that's perfectly fine. But, that's not the issue. The issue is you telling a group of strangers that they aren't really part of the hobby because they aren't playing the tabletop game. You and I enjoy D&D as a tabletop game. And that's groovy. Someone else enjoys D&D by watching a movie or playing NWN. That's perfectly fine too, isn't it?

Why gatekeeper the hobby? What productive points can be made by telling someone who plays NWN or reads FR novels they aren't actually part of the hobby?

Telling me that I'm not really a fan of Marvel because I don't buy comic books seems a bit strange, to be honest. I haven't bought a comic book in decades. Mostly because I live in Japan and they aren't available. But, I enjoy the Marvel Universe stuff in the movies and TV shows. Does that make me less of a fan than someone who buys comic books? Why bother creating this sort of hierarchy?

It's no different than Star Wars. Just because I'm not a consumer of the novels, does that mean I'm no longer counted as a Star Wars fan? I've never played the RPG (mostly because of lack of opportunity). So, does that further move me down on the fandom ladder?

Good grief, going back to NFL, there are probably an order of magnitude more NFL fans who haven't picked up a football in a decade than those who play on anything approaching a regular basis. Does that mean that they aren't really football fans? Am I only a real fan if I paint myself blue and go to a stadium? Millions of people watch NFL every weekend on TV. Are they somehow less important than those guys standing in the stands?

I really don't get this need to getting into pissing contests over who is a bigger fan.
 

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[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], well said.

I always find it interesting when a group of people who were/are such a minority and often feel/felt persecuted because of how they were labelled and therefore marginalized, tend do exactly the same thing when someone similar, but yet slightly different than themselves are placed in the same group/label as them.

Doesn't matter if it's a social, sexual or racial minority, it's interesting to observe when any minority does it.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
My group too. And that's perfectly fine. But, that's not the issue. The issue is you telling a group of strangers that they aren't really part of the hobby because they aren't playing the tabletop game. You and I enjoy D&D as a tabletop game. And that's groovy. Someone else enjoys D&D by watching a movie or playing NWN. That's perfectly fine too, isn't it?

I dont need to tell them that they are not part of the hobby. As soon as we sit down to play everyone is going to realise very quickly that something is not right.

It is not even being elitist, it is just that we are parts of the "same hobby" in the most general way possible.

Why gatekeeper the hobby? What productive points can be made by telling someone who plays NWN or reads FR novels they aren't actually part of the hobby?

Telling me that I'm not really a fan of Marvel because I don't buy comic books seems a bit strange, to be honest. I haven't bought a comic book in decades. Mostly because I live in Japan and they aren't available. But, I enjoy the Marvel Universe stuff in the movies and TV shows. Does that make me less of a fan than someone who buys comic books? Why bother creating this sort of hierarchy?

It's no different than Star Wars. Just because I'm not a consumer of the novels, does that mean I'm no longer counted as a Star Wars fan? I've never played the RPG (mostly because of lack of opportunity). So, does that further move me down on the fandom ladder?

Good grief, going back to NFL, there are probably an order of magnitude more NFL fans who haven't picked up a football in a decade than those who play on anything approaching a regular basis. Does that mean that they aren't really football fans? Am I only a real fan if I paint myself blue and go to a stadium? Millions of people watch NFL every weekend on TV. Are they somehow less important than those guys standing in the stands?

I really don't get this need to getting into pissing contests over who is a bigger fan.

First rule of pissing contest is "Never pee into the wind"
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], well said.

I always find it interesting when a group of people who were/are such a minority and often feel/felt persecuted because of how they were labelled and therefore marginalized, tend do exactly the same thing when someone similar, but yet slightly different than themselves are placed in the same group/label as them.

Doesn't matter if it's a social, sexual or racial minority, it's interesting to observe when any minority does it.

So you are saying that DnD Novel readers are somehow being persecuted and marginalised because they are not important enough for WotC to cater to any longer?
 

So you are saying that DnD Novel readers are somehow being persecuted and marginalised because they are not important enough for WotC to cater to any longer?
No. I'm saying you are marginalizing some fans of D&D because they don't fit your definition. I thought that was pretty clear.
 

PMárk

Explorer
It's strange to me that this became a debacle... I don't honestly know how much is it an apologism for WotC, to justify their boisterous statement?

D&D, IMO is D&D the tabletop game. Playing D&D is playing the tabletop game, not a derivative, not a video game, not a board game, not reading a novel, etc. As someone above said, that's engaging with the D&D brand, but not playing D&D. You could be a fan of D&D, or FR, or any derivative, while still not playing D&D.

It's not gatekeeping, it's just sensible definitions. Watching a sport indeed isn't playing the sport. That's not the question of which is better they're just not the same.

If Marvel would have said "x billion people are reading our comics" and counting into that number the people who never read a comic, but saw the films, that would be equally not true. That doesn't make them inferior fans in any way, they're just not doing what the company said they do.
 

Celebrim

Legend
My group too. And that's perfectly fine. But, that's not the issue.

Ok, what is the issue?

The issue is you telling a group of strangers that they aren't really part of the hobby because they aren't playing the tabletop game.

The hobby is table-top gaming. If they aren't playing the table-top game, then they aren't actually part of the hobby. This is not intended as slur. There is no shame in not having played D&D before. This is not necessarily exclusionary. They may be perfectly free and invited and welcome to join us in our hobby, and certainly I encourage DMs to take on new players. But as a matter of plain fact, they aren't part of the hobby until they have participated in it.

Someone else enjoys D&D by watching a movie or playing NWN. That's perfectly fine too, isn't it?

Of course it is. But, it has nothing to do with the fact that watching a D&D movie does not mean you have actually played D&D, and I would feel someone was misrepresenting themselves to say that they had played D&D because they had watched that episode of 'That 70's Show' where the rival love interest DJ turns out to be short nerdy Dungeon Master in real life, or because they watched the 'Dungeons and Dragons' cartoon, or because they saw that episode of 'Community'. All that is well and good, but none of that as a matter of actual fact makes you a player of Role-playing games. It may make you a member of fans of TV, or fans of fantasy, or something else, but it does not in fact make you a member of the hobby as a matter of actual and objective fact.

Why gatekeeper the hobby? What productive points can be made by telling someone who plays NWN or reads FR novels they aren't actually part of the hobby?

No one is gatekeeper of the hobby or trying to set up one!!! No one has to stand by and determine whether you are qualified to be a member of the hobby. You either have actually played D&D, or you have not. If you have not actually played D&D, then you may want to be part of the hobby (this is me from age 8 to age 9 before I joined my first group), but you have not yet in the hobby. I may have been 9 at the time, but I knew better than to assert I'd played D&D and had to be respected as a member of the hobby just because I owned the books and had colored the official AD&D coloring book.

You can own a football, you can watch football on TV every Sunday. You can know all the rules of the game. But unless you have actually played the game in some fashion, you aren't a player of football. And arguably, if you haven't played it in pads, I wouldn't quibble with the idea that you haven't played it for real and your qualifications as a football player are limited.

Telling me that I'm not really a fan of Marvel because I don't buy comic books seems a bit strange, to be honest. I haven't bought a comic book in decades. Mostly because I live in Japan and they aren't available. But, I enjoy the Marvel Universe stuff in the movies and TV shows. Does that make me less of a fan than someone who buys comic books? Why bother creating this sort of hierarchy?

It's no different than Star Wars. Just because I'm not a consumer of the novels, does that mean I'm no longer counted as a Star Wars fan? I've never played the RPG (mostly because of lack of opportunity). So, does that further move me down on the fandom ladder?

Good grief, going back to NFL, there are probably an order of magnitude more NFL fans who haven't picked up a football in a decade than those who play on anything approaching a regular basis. Does that mean that they aren't really football fans? Am I only a real fan if I paint myself blue and go to a stadium? Millions of people watch NFL every weekend on TV. Are they somehow less important than those guys standing in the stands?

I really don't get this need to getting into pissing contests over who is a bigger fan.

To be honest, that sort of rant sounds literally insane to me. I don't even understand this 'issue'. There isn't a value judgment involved in this at all. But breaking it down somewhat...

It's no different than Star Wars. Just because I'm not a consumer of the novels, does that mean I'm no longer counted as a Star Wars fan? I've never played the RPG (mostly because of lack of opportunity). So, does that further move me down on the fandom ladder?

There is no ranking here. It has nothing to do with bragging rights. I know I'm autistic and all, but really, is this actually a thing? And if it is actually a thing, why in the world do you let it bother you? Why in the world should you care? I have no interest in this 'fan pissing contest' (as you've described) thing that you and several others in the thread seem to have gotten completely derailed over. I am other baffled why you'd even play that game. If some one says to you, "If you haven't read the Star Wars novels, then you aren't as big of a fan as I am.", why aren't you completely content to agree? Does it hurt you any to say, "Yeah, totally. I admit that I'm not that interested in the extended universe. But I do really love the movies." Why is this even a thing? Can't you just objectively assess that if you haven't played the Star Wars RPG, you are not a player of the Star Wars RPG? Why is having played the Star Wars RPG such a badge of honor that you would be willing to dissemble about your level of experience with it or boast about or engrandize your own experience? Are other people's opinions of you that important, that you aren't content with reality?

Good grief, going back to NFL, there are probably an order of magnitude more NFL fans who haven't picked up a football in a decade than those who play on anything approaching a regular basis. Does that mean that they aren't really football fans?

No, of course not. But, that's not what is at stake. It does mean that they are not (currently) football players, and it is certainly true that no matter how you spin it, as a matter of objective fact having played Madden NFL 17 doesn't make you a football player. It makes you player of a sports derived football game. And, frankly, I would not feel wrong in thinking someone has left the bounds of reason so far behind, that if they asserted to me that having played Madden NFL 17 made them a football player, that they were insane and needed some degree of protection from their own delusional mindset. I recently asked someone, "Did you play football?" That person answered in the affirmative, but if they had meant actually, "Well, I played Madden NFL 17.", I would have thought them stupid, a braggart or insane, because as a matter of objective fact they had not played football. Likewise, when they asked me, "Did you play soccer?", I understood that they obviously weren't asking as to whether I'd played a video game, but whether I had in fact played soccer and organized soccer in particular.

I would be insane to be jealous of their superior experience in football, just as they would be insane to be jealous of my superior experience in soccer. Those are just matters of fact, and certainly neither of us were players of such great skill and reknown that we would be justified in boasting of our experience. Then again, I was working in a homeless shelter one time, and there was this big guy watching a football game on the TV, so to be social I asked him, "Did you play football?" and he said, "Yes.", and I said, "Oh yeah, who did you play for?", and he said, "The Cleveland Browns." Not bragging. Just a matter of factual record. Then again, maybe having played for the Browns isn't something worthy of bragging about.

Millions of people watch NFL every weekend on TV. Are they somehow less important than those guys standing in the stands?

Heck yes they are. Do you have any idea how much money those guys in the stands paid to watch the game? The NFL has ever right and reason to think that they are more important than a casual viewer like myself, and an NFL season ticket holder that flies out to the away games probably has a legitimate reason for thinking that the NFL should care more about his opinions than they do mine.

Why is this hard? I don't get it.
 
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BryonD

Hero
Rather amusing conversation.

Of course from WotC's perspective any activity inside the concept of "D&D" counts, be it board games, computer games, or TTRPGs.
And, of course from the perspective of "mainstream acceptance" any activity in which the person is engaged in recreational activity knowingly under the banner of "D&D" then all those things count.

But it is a total non sequitur (and a substantial red herring) to conflate those truths with the idea that the activities are in all ways the same. Being as this is a TTRPG community, the presumption of that filter is in place. However, it should be obvious to anyone after just a bit of context that this community was not at all assumed in the conversation. WotC isn't obligated to take TTRPG boards into account as a presumed audience when talking. (which is highly ironic to say given that the point is "mainstream")

D&D board games are different than D&D CCRPGs and also different than D&D TTRPGs. There is no implicit value judgement in that and there is no tribalism in that. (And ftf TTRPGs are different than PbP and VTT as well). Different. Just "different". In some cases, not by a lot. But different.

If you have an apple pie contest and someone tries to enter a blueberry pie, there is nothing wrong with be exclusionary.
If you have an apple pie contest and someone walks up and says "hey, you are a bunch of people who love apple pies enough to have a contest. I'm betting a lot of you like pies in general and I'd like you to tatse this blueberry pie."
A really disfunctional reply would be "that's not pie".
There are a lot of great possible replies.
"No"
"No thanks"
"I'm allergic"
"yes"
"Yes please"
"Sounds good, just please don't complicate our contest by mixing you pie into it. Hey look, there is a spare table over there."
I'm sure there are more.

WotC likes our apple pie. WotC is not hung up on our apple pie. IMHO, WotC is much more interested in other flavors of pie. They still really like *our* pie, but....

If somebody brings something relevant to our little slice of reality here, then awesome. But, again IMHO, a constructive member of this little slice would take the larger context of the material into account rather than trying to force it through our special filter.
 

Hussar

Legend
Celebrim said:
It may make you a member of fans of TV, or fans of fantasy, or something else, but it does not in fact make you a member of the hobby as a matter of actual and objective fact.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ally-Mainstream!-Now-What/page7#ixzz4eAnhfoEW

I guess my problem is you're defining "the hobby" as solely someone who has played D&D. ((Or, I presume any RPG)) I don't see the point in defining "the hobby" that way. This isn't 1982 anymore. "The Hobby" has grown beyond just the TTRPG. Just like football has grown beyond just people who play the game.

IOW, I look at something like the article and see that "The Hobby" has expanded to the point where it might be viewed as mainstream. And, I'm perfectly fine with that. I don't see any particular need to place fences around "The Hobby". If someone says, "Hey, I like D&D", I don't immediately assume that they mean the tabletop game.

Why?

Because "The Hobby", like comic books, or sports, or any other mainstream cultural item, is larger than just a single point of entry. I simply don't care if "I like D&D" means NWN, or DDM, or TTRPG or Planescape:Torment, or Lords of Waterdeep or Attackwing, or Kre-o. It's ALL part of the hobby AFAIC.
 

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