WFRP 4th Edition - How the game has evolved.

[TheSword]

They really need this. I think the spread of more or less essential rules updates across various books are a big barrier to on boarding new players. I know I won't invest in 4e before there's a 4.5.

That’s your prerogative. Most of these changes have come from the many discussions with the designers on the Ratcatcher Discord for WFRP after use in play. I’m really glad that they are happy to publish variants and options. They’re not essential - they’re just very good and highly recommended.

 

[schneeland]

Don’t forget they are intentionally going back to the Age of Three Emperors for that game. So it won’t be in the current timeline. It might generate a source book in WFRP or a spin off game from Cubicle 7, or whole new game from a new company or a brand new edition. I suspect the first or second though. Everything I see makes me think WFRP is doing well.

That's a good point. Personally, I would love to see a C7 take based on their Age of Sigmar system (or have Free League do their thing, because I love all things Free League; but it really doesn't make much sense to me to have two companies publish RPGs for the Old World, even when they are set in slightly different times).

 

[GreyLord]

It’s unlikely because it’s all licensed product and WFRP editions have always had quite long runs and each been published by a different company. Each new edition has been a massive departure from the previous one in both rules and style.

A lot of the rules I’ve described have been additions but it would definitely be useful to collect the changes to the core rules (armour, group advantage, channelling, overcasting, falling unconscious etc) into one place.

1e and 2e were largely compatible. There were differences, but nothing quite as broad as 3e or 4e. 4e takes some similar ideas, but really is a completely different system.

I use 4e books, but have reverted to some 1e or 2e isms simply because 4e is too complex to run at our tables. I find it is perhaps the hardest system of any for my players to understand (these guys understand Rifts, Rolemaster, and other systems, but can't grapple with WHFRP 4e). We use percentage rolls again and limit how high they can advance because of this.

Lore is nice though. Art is nice. Rules are just a little too bulky for tabletop use for us. So, it's been adapted to a more 1e/2e style...I suppose more 2e as 2e had maneuvers and such that 1e lacked.

 

[MGibster]

I own a few WFRP 2nd edition books, but I never played it because I don't think my players would have enjoyed it. I love the setting, but the system has a high whiff factor as far as PC success, at least that was my impression, and I didn't want to play a rat catcher with a small but vicious dog. How does 4th edition play out? I saw it at my local game store today and was tempted to purchase it.

 

[thullgrim]

I own a few WFRP 2nd edition books, but I never played it because I don't think my players would have enjoyed it. I love the setting, but the system has a high whiff factor as far as PC success, at least that was my impression, and I didn't want to play a rat catcher with a small but vicious dog. How does 4th edition play out? I saw it at my local game store today and was tempted to purchase it.

4th has done a lot to eliminate the whiff factor for. Prior editions. The advantage mechanics, as well as the way the opposed combat mechanics function ensure someone is nearly always taking damage or a condition. I tend to find that way fights are fairly short, suitably vicious, and once one side gets the advantage can snowball quickly. It counesges people to fight only when they have too, to fight as dirty as possible, and to pay attention. Once it’s starts turning against you it might be time to run.

 

[MGibster]

4th has done a lot to eliminate the whiff factor for. Prior editions. The advantage mechanics, as well as the way the opposed combat mechanics function ensure someone is nearly always taking damage or a condition. I tend to find that way fights are fairly short, suitably vicious, and once one side gets the advantage can snowball quickly. It counesges people to fight only when they have too, to fight as dirty as possible, and to pay attention. Once it’s starts turning against you it might be time to run.

I've got a few games I purchased during the COVID season that I have yet to play. Pulp Cthulhu, the Deadlands campaign The Horror and Headstone Hill, and a few others I want to try knocking out of the way before I think about Warhammer FRPG, but I appreciate the your description of the game.

 

[TheSword]

I own a few WFRP 2nd edition books, but I never played it because I don't think my players would have enjoyed it. I love the setting, but the system has a high whiff factor as far as PC success, at least that was my impression, and I didn't want to play a rat catcher with a small but vicious dog. How does 4th edition play out? I saw it at my local game store today and was tempted to purchase it.

I totally agree with the whiff factor. It was probably the single biggest criticism of the first two editions. That and how some careers could easily invulnerable murder machines.

The whiff factor was fixed with one pretty significant change which is why I think it took us a while to get our heads around the game. In the old system and in D&D etc you make a roll to hit which is a test against a fixed number and then you make a roll for damage based on the weapon. In WFRP they then got to make a Parry or Dodge which if successful meant your opponent ignored your hit. It meant you only had a chance of hitting which was reduced even further by giving your opponent a chance of ignoring your success - hence the whiff.

WFRP 4e uses the concept of Success Levels. Basically you have a target number - let’s say your Melee Basic Weapon Skill is 60. You make a test against that target number. If you roll under it you pass the test and how much you pass (the success level) usually matters. With attacking in combat (and lots of other tests) this is opposed though. So your opponent also makes a Weapon Skill test to defend (or a dodge, or another appropriate skill). The person who hits, is the person who gets the most SLs not the person with the lowest roll.

An example: You attack me and your Melee Basic skill is 60 and you roll 47 to hit. You have 2 SL’s (6 - 4 = 2 You count the 10’s digit to work out SLs). My Melee Basic skill is 50 and I roll 47 to hit. I have 1 SL (5 - 4 = 1). You have beaten me by 1 SL so you hit me even though I passed my WS test.

Instead of rolling a separate die for damage that SL is added to you strength bonus typically (3 to 6) and the damage for that weapon (a sword is 4) and that forms the damage for that attack. Just as in previous editions Toughness and Location Armour then act as a soak. If I had rolled more SLs than you, then I would have successfully parried or dodged your attack.

The whiff disappears because It’s possible for both attacker and defender to miss their WS check (roll higher than their WS) but to still win, because you get -1 SL for instance and I get -3 SLs which still beats me. Your attack was clumsy but my parry was worse. It means that it’s relative skill that makes a difference. Your opponents skill with a blade matters but you don’t find that your one successful hit in the 3 rounds was dodged.

Don’t get me wrong you can still miss but there are ways of tipping the balance. Firstly you can crit (any double on a successful test) as either attack or defender which have some pretty spectacular effects. You can also fumble (double on a failed test) which can swing the game substantially. Secondly advantage kicks in - you get 1 point for every time you win an opposed test which can then be used to give you the edge in battle. Thirdly you can use fortune to reroll attacks or nudge the results by 1 SL.

I think this is the fundamental difference that Greylord’s table is probably finding an issue. Particularly when you add in the fact that different weapons have special rules that add on to this and talents can modify the results of tests. There are also quite a few circumstantial bonuses and penalties for outnumbering the foe, being surprised or prone etc, and conditions (similar to Pathfinder) that can adjust your target number.

If you use a VTT like we did for the first sessions then this is all calculated for you, so you don’t have to think to hard about it. I’m confident we could play face to face now we’ve got used to that way of working. But then again we were institutionalized by 30+ Years of D&D/Pathfinder. Maybe players with more experience of 1st & 2nd edition WFRP would find it easier.

I suspect this post will have either really put people off or reassured them I guess

 

[TheSword]

1e and 2e were largely compatible. There were differences, but nothing quite as broad as 3e or 4e. 4e takes some similar ideas, but really is a completely different system.

I use 4e books, but have reverted to some 1e or 2e isms simply because 4e is too complex to run at our tables. I find it is perhaps the hardest system of any for my players to understand (these guys understand Rifts, Rolemaster, and other systems, but can't grapple with WHFRP 4e). We use percentage rolls again and limit how high they can advance because of this.

Lore is nice though. Art is nice. Rules are just a little too bulky for tabletop use for us. So, it's been adapted to a more 1e/2e style...I suppose more 2e as 2e had maneuvers and such that 1e lacked.

It’s all relative I guess. 4th edition followed on from 3rd which completely threw out the rules and turned it into a board game so for most fans 4th edition feels like a return to its roots.

As I said in my last post, replacing my WS test and your Parry Test with an opposed test which also determines damage is a big change. I get why people find it difficult to come to terms with but it’s worth sticking at. It gets easier and once you get it, it’s really elegant. An attack in 4e becomes a deeply interactive thing that can end up swinging the tide of combat significantly. Every attack can matter.

I also find players actively watching and interacting about combat. When someone rolls a 04 and get six SLs the other players will whistle or wince when they roll a 87 to defend because they know that going to hurt - until the opponent rolls even worse and it’s like they dodged a bullet. It’s hard to explain but it just feels more satisfying.

 

[TheSword]

Another interesting thing worth acknowledging is the effect the new edition has on difficulty and progression. I think this gets at the heart of why I really like WFRP 4e and find it so much more enjoyable.

Under 1st & 2nd edition the higher you got your Weapon Skill, the easier it got to hit. To the point where it was very unlikely you would miss. The game balanced this by having tougher creatures, more armour, more wounds and better parrying. D&D has a similar solution. To hit rolls increase much faster than AC and so the solution to this is more wounds and abilities that mitigate damage. Both systems could turn into a bit of a slog as PCs tried to hack away at monster wounds while trying not to lose their own reserves.

WFRP 4e however doesn’t need to do this as fighting against a high WS foe with just a few wounds can be very challenging as they don’t need huge wound reserves. You can still chip away at them though with successful hits and crits but your hits will deal less as their skill means you won’t get big bonuses from SLs to damage and so that damage doesn’t turn into the city-levelling stuff we see in D&D.

Of course there are tougher monsters and creatures with more wounds, a troll for instance and sure they are difficult in their own right but they usually have lower weapon skill to balance things. There are some creatures like chaos warriors with high WS, high toughness, high wounds, and high armour that are going to need the party to be tactical. Ranged weapons to build advantage, or use of the assess action, or defensive fighting which then lets a particularly skilled fighter with the right weapon for the job use Advantage to get a telling hit in.

This also brings in WFRP’s other famous difference to D&D - PCs who are herbalists, bankers, rat catchers and nuns. In D&D these would quickly become useless in combat which counts a lot for D&D. In this system that nun can make a good contribution by building advantage and in desperate stage assist with outnumbering. They can entangle the foes or try and blind them. Or invest enough into sword play or dodging that they can at least contribute and last a few rounds. Then out of combat their non-combat skills can shine. It’s worth noting that players can use other skills to defend in combat where appropriate the book suggests Intimidate or Charm. A character can also fight defensively and gain +20 to that test. Remember even if all they do is successfully defend, they’re still contributing to Advantage points.

High WS is really effective because it influences damage in melee but even that low level goblin with WS 20 could get lucky and roll +2 SL 9% of the time and that amazing warrior with 100 WS can get 1 SL and be beaten. Sure it’s rare but give those goblins 20% for outnumbering 2-1 and throw in a critical result which can cause a bleed or stunned condition on the fighter or knock them prone and combat will always have a little bite in it. Of course most of the time conditions won’t be this disparate.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

It’s all relative I guess. 4th edition followed on from 3rd which completely threw out the rules and turned it into a board game so for most fans 4th edition feels like a return to its roots.

I'm not sure edition bashing adds anything positive to this thread