What does the fighter need...

[William drake]

Fighters should gain a feat every level, not every second level.

This avoids the dead level syndrome.

It is not overpowering the fighter, because so many of the fighters feats are situational. Offering more feats just means the fighter is a more able combatant, in more varied situations. With more feats, he can afford to specialise in more weapons.

I disagree. What, when you get nothing its a DEAD LEVEL?? You're character is boreing and lame without new toys or abilities every other level?


Yes, they are situational..and they fact that they have them even when outside their present situation makes them unique and widely trained. Ex: I know how to fight on a horse, but were on the sea....sorry, you can't fight on a horse right now, but to you that makes them sound like their useless. If they only had skills for feats for particular enviroments, you'd argue that they arn't well-rounded enough.

You can get all those skills, but at higher levels. You can't just learn everything in a few levles, which youd get if they got more feats then they already do. Humans get bonus feats, then fighters get extra feats, now you want to give them more. SLOW DOWN...

And, if the player chose is feat wrong, maybe that DEAD LEVEL, as you've said, will give him time to think better upon what he'd like later.

 

[William drake]

Well, since the Bo9S came out, Fighters should definately get a maneuver and stance progression, since they are supposed to be the class that... fights the best, and they have been heavily overshadowed and all but rendered completely obsolete by the Warblade.

Sense Motive (for recognizing feints in combat-because I think it's ridiculous that Rogues can easily outmaneuver Fighters in straight-up melee, and the "sizing up the competition" use for the skill that appears in various books), Spot, and maybe Heal (for first aid.)

True, fighters should get or, beable to get sense motive, but Rogues should have it, and perhaps sooner. Their skill with it is used to out think, or cheat first, their enemy.

Also, if you take it away from Rogues, then their Sneak Attacks lose their logic.

 

[William drake]

I think is an important point, the fighter is way too dependent on all items for high level combats, not just for the raw bonuses, but in dealing with magics of all kinds of types. He should have nonmagical ways of at least having a chance agaisnt such magics.

For example:

Battle Senses (EX): A 10th level fighter gains a wariness of invisible opponents and ambushes. He gains blindsense of 15 feet.

Sorry. Don't agree. It should be a Feat, I don't think that all fighters, and that's what will happen if it becomes apart of the standard class; that they can fight invisible foes...and not all fighters are ninjas...or any other martialarts trained fighter to have BlindSense...


Your a fighter..pick your feats, and that makes what kind of fighter you are. That's why the get so many, it makes them fluid and unique..different from each other, though most fighters take alot of the same feats.


And, at higher levels a fighter, much like a monk or barbarian can dodge, will-out, or just shrug off alot of magical spells. Think about it, at what level do their stats: Con, Ref, Will get high enough so that it doesnt take much to beat a caster's DC..and a caster has to do alot of things to get his DC high anyway.

 

[Nightfall]

Will,

So I take it you'd shoot my friend huh?

 

[Klaus]

Give the fighter a choice of Background at 1st level. Each Background offers 2-3 skills that becoma class skills.

Give the Fighter the optional abilities from PHB2, but isntead of taking a feat away, give them at levels a Fighter wouldn't get a feat (say, 7th, 11th and 13th)

 

[Shades of Green]

I'd give the fighter three more class skills - Diplomacy (for noble-type fighters who'd want to set up a stronghold and get into politics), Profession (for the more refined fighters) and Knowledge (Military). In addition, I'd give the fighter one additional skill point per level (i.e. 3 + Int Mod per level). And, alst but not least, I'd make the Leader feat one of the possible bonus feats a fighter could take (for those willing to be generals/stronghold-rulers/nobles).

EDIT: As some people have said before, the fighter's biggest problem is having very little non-combat mechanical abilities other than climbing, running, riding, and maybe smithing. Compare this to the Rogue with his skills-for-every occasion or to the Cleric or Wizard with their vast arrays of utility spells, and you'll see that if your campaign has prolonged non-combat scenes (as I like my campaigns to have), the fighter ends up somewhat redundant in them rules-wise (he could still roleplay, ofcourse, and have great fun that way, but that's not the point here).

 

[green slime]

I disagree. What, when you get nothing its a DEAD LEVEL?? You're character is boreing and lame without new toys or abilities every other level?


Yes, they are situational..and they fact that they have them even when outside their present situation makes them unique and widely trained. Ex: I know how to fight on a horse, but were on the sea....sorry, you can't fight on a horse right now, but to you that makes them sound like their useless. If they only had skills for feats for particular enviroments, you'd argue that they arn't well-rounded enough.

You can get all those skills, but at higher levels. You can't just learn everything in a few levles, which youd get if they got more feats then they already do. Humans get bonus feats, then fighters get extra feats, now you want to give them more. SLOW DOWN...

And, if the player chose is feat wrong, maybe that DEAD LEVEL, as you've said, will give him time to think better upon what he'd like later.

No, you are missing the point completely, but don't worry, that is allowed. I never mentioned anybody's particular character being "boring". So kindly desist from placing words in the mouths of others. And please desist from shouting.

The problem with dead levels is exacerbated by the fact that vast majority of PrCs offer something every level.

No other class has to suffer from so many "dead levels" as the fighter. The fighter has seven dead levels of twenty. Count them. That is 35% of the time, the only new toy the fighter class can hand to a levelling character, is 1d10 +2 skill points +1BAB. Sounds exciting, when compared to... just about any other PrC, base class, not!

My wish is not to create non-boring characters, (as even warriors could be made exciting by an interested player), but to give options other than PrCs for the fighter class.

 

[Sidekick]

Give the fighter a choice of Background at 1st level. Each Background offers 2-3 skills that becoma class skills.

Give the Fighter the optional abilities from PHB2, but isntead of taking a feat away, give them at levels a Fighter wouldn't get a feat (say, 7th, 11th and 13th)

I like both those ideas. I especially like the second one about the PHBII abilities & I might use it in future.

Apart from that here’s what I’d do to boost the Fighter in a post-ToB world.

Weapon Aptitude:Yes the ability from the Warblade. Why does the Warblade get this at 1st level and the fighter never gets it? In my future campaigns this is going to be a fighter capability from 1st level and the Warblade doesn’t get it at all (they hardly need it anyway). Obviously with this al the extra details about being treated as a fighter of your level-2 is no longer relevant.

Talent Trees(at odd levels): I don’t think that a feat at every level is the answer, there needs to be something else like the Dead level recommendations for the odd levels. So something similar to d20 Modern’s Strong & Tough classes I’d offer the fighter some talent trees such as.

The Extreme Effort, Unbreakable Hero, Energy Resistance & Ignore Hardness trees if modified slightly would be rather appropriate – I’m not too sure about the Melee Smash tree as that would have some rather powerful interactions with specialisation and the new PHB II mastery feats etc. That one would need to be thought out more (ie by someone else) I feel.

I think that if you had a talent to pick at 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 11th (I dunno past that as I’ve never played high level D&D) Then that, along with the classes PHB II abilities and feats every second level should make the fighter a decent combatant again.

Happy Gaming,
Sidekick

 

[awayfarer]

The fighter is just a Class, if the player can't find anything to do when not killing things, then the player is boreing.

It easy to say that a player is responsible for making a boring character, but the class as written does nothing to help them. I do agree that quite a bit of it can be the responsibility of the player, but when you've got nothing to contribute outside of a battle. Skills are a huge help in this area.

I should note that for the upcoming campaign, I've ruled that perform and profession are class skills for every class. Players are getting an extra skill point to put in either of these at each level. I'm hoping that folks will give their character a hobby to flesh them out.

 

[Hussar]

Here's an idea that's been rattling around in my brain.

What if you give a moderate boost to the fighters BAB? Make his BAB progression a little bit better than everyone else's. Say +5/4 levels or +4/3 levels. It wouldn't make an enormous difference, but, he would start getting his iterative attacks a level or two quicker than everyone else and, around 18th level, he'd get a 5th attack.

It seems a tad simple. Is there something I'm missing? While a barbarian get's rage, the figher get's a second attack at 5th level instead of 6th. Certainly a big bennie for those who stay with the class.