What economic class do you fall into?

[Morrus]

By owning land, do you mean some major parcel, like an estate or something? Or any land? I own the land my home is on, (about a quarter acre), as do most U.S. homeowners. My grandparents owned a full farm, which passed to my father and his siblings -- they sold it and I inherited my father's share of the proceeds. My mother owns a couple of [so far] undeveloped acres in my hometown.

I'm wondering if "owning land" is more significant in the U.K. and Europe than it is in the U.S.

Bullgrit

No, he doesn't mean owning your own home. Obviously that's common. I suspect he means landed gentry, which is an archaic term but means - IIRC - a couple of hundred acres for 3 or more generations. That definition is just off the top of my head; could be wrong. I think it was even higher a bit further back - 500 acres or so, and some requirement that the owner live off estate rents without working.

 

[Dioltach]

According to the Great British Class Calculator, I'm one of the Elite. Not sure I agree.

Wikipedia has a fairly lengthy entry for "upper middle class", describing the differences between the UK and the US.

 

[delericho]

No, he doesn't mean owning your own home. Obviously that's common. I suspect he means landed gentry

Yes, this. Owning your own home is generally a mark of the middle class, but actually owning the land on which it is built is less common.

As for what land 'counts' as far as being upper class is concerned... it's complex. Not all land counts equally, and it also matters how you came by it. (In particular, if you bought one of those scraps of land in Scotland that comes with an associated title, then those people who care about such things would not only say it doesn't count, but would look down on you doubly for daring to think it does.)

My (very rough) rule of thumb is:

If you have a title (or, more accurately, if Daddy has/had a title), or you/your family own any significant amount of land, you're probably upper class.

If not, but you own your own home or you own your own business, you're probably middle class.

If not, you're probably working class.

But it's hugely subjective, especially around the boundaries. And people can be quite touchy about it.

According to the Great British Class Calculator, I'm one of the Elite. Not sure I agree.

Ah, that. I wouldn't bother too much about that - it was a system a bunch of academics tried to push about a year ago, that was widely reported by the media for a day or two but otherwise largely ignored.

One particular omission that that calculator makes (as, in fairness, most do) is that there's no question about debt. The boundary between "Established Middle Class" and "Elite" seems to be based on the value of home owned and the amount of savings (be it pension, ISA, or savings accounts). But an awful lot of people who 'own' their homes do so only through almost unmanageable mortgages - I know at least one person who this calculator makes "Elite" but who is desperately struggling because of that.

It is, however, interesting that according to the attached article, Falkirk is one of the top locations where the Established Middle Class are clustered. And, incidentally, the calculator puts us into that bracket.

 

[Bullgrit]

No, he doesn't mean owning your own home.

Yes, this. Owning your own home is generally a mark of the middle class, but actually owning the land on which it is built is less common.

It seems to have been misread, but I specifically said we own the land our home is built on:

I own the land my home is on, (about a quarter acre), as do most U.S. homeowners.

Bullgrit

 

[Morrus]

It seems to have been misread, but I specifically said we own the land our home is built on:

Yes. We own the land our houses are on. Like I said, he meant owning large tracts of land in the sense of landed gentry. Different subject entirely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landed_gentry

 

[Bullgrit]

I suspect he means landed gentry, which is an archaic term but means - IIRC - a couple of hundred acres for 3 or more generations.

Interesting contrast. Here in the U.S., many 3rd generation farmers/ranchers could own land ten times that size and be considered completely middle class. Heck, they might even be low economic class with regards to their income. Granted, they may own several tractors worth $100,000 to work that land. But owning land, even vast tracts, doesn't make one special in the U.S. (It can make you wealthy if located in certain places.)

Bullgrit

 

[delericho]

But owning land, even vast tracts, doesn't make one special in the U.S.

Indeed. But you have rather more than we do.

 

[Morrus]

Interesting contrast. Here in the U.S., many 3rd generation farmers/ranchers could own land ten times that size and be considered completely middle class. Heck, they might even be low economic class with regards to their income. Granted, they may own several tractors worth $100,000 to work that land. But owning land, even vast tracts, doesn't make one special in the U.S.

Yes, I know. Land is cheap in the US because it has a very low population density; the UK is much more densely populated. There are areas of your country where you can see this: owning land in Manhattan, for example, makes you pretty special. It's basic economics.

This is all just common old supply & demand. It's not mysterious or anything. The US has a population density of 84/m^2 and the UK of 660/m^2.

 

[Bullgrit]

There are areas of your country where you can see this: owning land in Manhattan, for example, makes you pretty special. It's basic economics.

This is all just common old supply & demand. It's not mysterious or anything.

Yes, I know. I completely understand that. I was referring to the title that goes with owning land in the U.K. From what y'all have been saying, the title, (like from land ownership), puts one into a higher class even if one's economic income is identical to, (or even lower than), someone without a title. That's the interesting contrast.

Bullgrit

 

[Morrus]

Yes, I know. I completely understand that. I was referring to the title that goes with owning land in the U.K. From what y'all have been saying, the title, (like from land ownership), puts one into a higher class even if one's economic income is identical to, (or even lower than), someone without a title. That's the interesting contrast.

You sound like you've never heard of the UK's historical class system and its titles. You know we have a monarchy, right? Think of it like D&D. There's lots of that in D&D. Or watch some Downton Abbey, perhaps.

Here's more info if you want to read up on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_structure_of_the_United_Kingdom#Archaic

These days a lot of it is viewed as archaic and more modern structures based on wealth and occupation are popular, just like in the US.