D&D 5E What happened to the Hermaphrodites???

[Dire Bare]

What I don't get is why they went with "androgynous" instead of "intersex". "Androgynous," at least as I've seen it used, refers to one's physical appearance and has nothing to do with sex or gender identity. Of course he appears androgynous, that's par the course for elves

Elves are not always portrayed as androgynous, but of course, sometimes are, or at least moreso than humans.

Did they just assume that players wouldn't know what "intersex" meant?

They should've assumed most don't, it's not a commonly used word.

 

[LordEntrails]

What I don't get is why they went with "androgynous" instead of "intersex". "Androgynous," at least as I've seen it used, refers to one's physical appearance and has nothing to do with sex or gender identity. Of course he appears androgynous, that's par the course for elves

Did they just assume that players wouldn't know what "intersex" meant?

1) I don't think it's fair/accurate to say that all elves appear androgynous. IMO, all elves may appear to have feminine characteristics, but that's not the same as appearing androgynous.
2) That assumption is probably a good one, before this thread I had never heard of the term "intersex". And it will probably be a long time until it becomes mainstream enough to be used in the way suggested in this thread.

 

[Dire Bare]

I liked the recognition of more than just the traditional female/male genders in D&D. Since it is a real thing in the real world why wouldn't it be a real thing in a fantasy world? They might have gone a little overboard with the examples, I think just listing the various possibilities would have been enough, but better too much than not enough I guess. So overall good job.

What I don't like is the exclusion of options. So I don't like the exclusion of the hermaphrodite description for Corellon Larethian. I guess it would be more rare for a character than a god/godess, but still, why not leave the option open?

I also don't like the absence of the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity. It is a D&D classic and a lot of fun. And if you think about it, it might actually be a quest objective for characters that actually want the change.

Oh well. I can always add these things back into my own campaigns. So not really a big deal. Just annoying that they leave things out for fear that someone somewhere might be offended.

WotC isn't "excluding options" at all, they are simply removing language that IS offensive to some folks, which is probably a smart call. Is your game really suffering because the leader of the elven pantheon is only described as androgynous, and not also hermaphroditic? Heck, as I mentioned a few posts above, he's still both in my campaign . . . not that it'll ever come up in conversation, as I'd be really surprised if one of my players asked, "Does Corellon have both . . ."

The Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity? I'm glad that's not in the game anymore. I've never seen that handled well at any table I've played at.

Why should WotC NOT care about offending folks? Should they include "classic" racist and sexist stereotypes in the game? I'm glad that WotC has both made the game more inclusive, and in part by removing things that ARE offensive to some folks. You're right, if you really want to add that stuff back in, nobody's stopping you.

 

[Aaron L]

I never remember Corellon actually specifically being referred to as a hermaphrodite, but always as androgynous, even though "he" was mostly referred to as male; in fact, "his" first appearance in the 1E Deities & Demigods consistently referred to him as "he" (quotation marks included) and said "Corellon is alternately male or female, both or neither."

However, the picture of him in the 3E Deities & Demigods that depicted him wearing rainbow-hued eye-shadow was just a tad too much, IMO.

 

[ccs]

WotC isn't "excluding options" at all, they are simply removing language that IS offensive to some folks, which is probably a smart call. Is your game really suffering because the leader of the elven pantheon is only described as androgynous, and not also hermaphroditic? Heck, as I mentioned a few posts above, he's still both in my campaign . . . not that it'll ever come up in conversation, as I'd be really surprised if one of my players asked, "Does Corellon have both . . ."

The Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity? I'm glad that's not in the game anymore. I've never seen that handled well at any table I've played at.

Why should WotC NOT care about offending folks? Should they include "classic" racist and sexist stereotypes in the game? I'm glad that WotC has both made the game more inclusive, and in part by removing things that ARE offensive to some folks. You're right, if you really want to add that stuff back in, nobody's stopping you.

If people are offended by words they don't understand the meaning of, that's not WoTC problem.

 

[77IM]

I had a dream last night that dragons were sequential hermaphrodites; they could change from one sex to the other, based on breeding opportunities. Evolutionarily, it made sense for a species with such a small population and birth rate and such a high investment in individuals. But the dragons were embarrassed about it, and it's one of the things that made them grumpy and hide in caves and eat adventurers. My dream was narrated by David Attenborough.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

They should've assumed most don't, it's not a commonly used word.

You don't exactly need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out what it means from its roots and context, though. " 'Intersex'? 'Intersex'? Is that a dish detergent brand? Some kind of tropical fish? It's an impenetrable mystery!"

Still, it's noteworthy that the paragraph doesn't use any of our standard contemporary labels for gender and sexual minorities, instead describing them obliquely. There's no "gay", "lesbian", "bisexual", or "transgender" any more than there's "intersex". I don't know why the writers made this decision, but if I were the one writing and made the same decision, it would be because these terms have become labels for communities and subcultures in modern society as much as the physical and mental traits that members of these communities use to define them. I think it's sort of like how they wouldn't just say "You can be white, black, Asian, or any other race" because those racial labels (especially "Asian") are defined by real-world geography and history, even though of course your character can have whatever appearance you want.

 

[Dire Bare]

I never remember Corellon actually specifically being referred to as a hermaphrodite, but always as androgynous, even though "he" was mostly referred to as male; in fact, "his" first appearance in the 1E Deities & Demigods consistently referred to him as "he" (quotation marks included) and said "Corellon is alternately male or female, both or neither."

However, the picture of him in the 3E Deities & Demigods that depicted him wearing rainbow-hued eye-shadow was just a tad too much, IMO.

"Corellon is alternatively male or female, both or neither", this quote gives Corellon agency and control over his gender, which is pretty cool, IMO, as most of us do not have such control. However, describing him as androgynous and/or hermaphroditic/intersex gives him more identity, as it becomes part of who he is, rather than something he can change at will. But, it's all shades of meaning that don't stray too far away from each other.

In my campaign, humans ask their elven friends, "Your god, Corellon, is he a man or a woman?" And then they are mystified when the elves respond, "Yes."

 

[Dire Bare]

If people are offended by words they don't understand the meaning of, that's not WoTC problem.

Not what is happening here.

Words change meaning all the time. In my first post, I expressed surprise that hermaphrodite is an offensive term, but I learned something today. Hermaphrodite IS an offensive term. It wasn't, originally. But there are TONS of words that in the past, were not considered offensive. And then usually, some folks started using those words derogatorily to demean others, and they became offensive.

I'm a teacher, and I'm constantly on my students to stop using the word "gay" in a derogatory fashion ("That's so gay!"). And when they respond, "But, Mr. Dire Bare, gay means 'happy'!", I let loose with both barrels. Gay used to mean "happy", and in the right context, can still simply mean "happy", but that isn't how it's usually used today, certainly not how they are using it.

Words change meaning all the time. Words that once were inoffensive, can become offensive. People who don't understand that are not WotC's problem. If you choose to use the word "hermaphrodite" after learning that it's meaning has shifted to being offensive, then you are being stubborn at best, and a tool at worst.

For some reason, in my prior posts I felt the need to "hold onto" the word hermaphrodite when it comes to good old Corellon. I was being stubborn. That's not who I want to be, so I'm dropping the use of it. I'll simply use "androgynous" and the more poetic description from the 1E Deities & Demigods. If I need to get more technical, which I doubt I'll need to, I'll use the term intersex, and then have to explain what that means to my players (which is okay).

 

[Lord Twig]

WotC isn't "excluding options" at all, they are simply removing language that IS offensive to some folks, which is probably a smart call. Is your game really suffering because the leader of the elven pantheon is only described as androgynous, and not also hermaphroditic? Heck, as I mentioned a few posts above, he's still both in my campaign . . . not that it'll ever come up in conversation, as I'd be really surprised if one of my players asked, "Does Corellon have both . . ."

The Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity? I'm glad that's not in the game anymore. I've never seen that handled well at any table I've played at.

Why should WotC NOT care about offending folks? Should they include "classic" racist and sexist stereotypes in the game? I'm glad that WotC has both made the game more inclusive, and in part by removing things that ARE offensive to some folks. You're right, if you really want to add that stuff back in, nobody's stopping you.

No, my game is not suffering. I mentioned that I can just add what I need back in. I said it was annoying, which is far from a strong emotion. It's like sitting down at a table and realizing that someone moved your drink so it is out of reach. You may be annoyed, but you just go grab your drink and then forget about it. Maybe you make a comment about it to someone that it's annoying, like I did here.

Ultimately it doesn't effect me at all.

As for the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity. It's hilarious. It's not meant to be handled "well". It's comedy. Like "Some Like it Hot" or "Bosom Buddies*" or a million other shows that use the trope. Heck, the Order of the Stick used it as an excellent narrative device.

*Tom Hanks was in this, which amuses me now far more than the actual show did.