What is it that makes goblinoids different from non-goblinoids?

[Guang]

What makes one creature a goblinoid, and another creature not a goblinoid?

Modern D&D and pathfinder draw a line around 3 main species, so that goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are all goblinoids, but orcs, for example, are not.

Eberron changes much of goblinoid lore for the Dar of Dhakaan, but goblins and hobgoblins are still just as goblinoid.

Other fantasy games and older versions of D&D may include orcs and other monsters lumped together with the goblins. An extreme might be fighting fantasy, with gremlins, orcs, and trolls all stated to be related to goblins.

So what is it that makes a humanoid or monstrous humanoid goblinoid? If I wanted to, say, make dwarves, halflings, or humans goblinoid, how would they have to be changed? What could you remove from a goblin or bugbear or hobgoblin to make it not a goblinoid anymore?

What is the essence of goblinoid?

 

[Hand of Evil]

This is a Rabbit vs Hare. Yes, they are two different animals.

In some of my games, I place goblins as the young of the goblinoids, they are born able to take care of themselves, as they develop, they become hobs and later they become bugbears. Orcs are (in my games) are corruption of humans, just a branch in their tree.

 

[Guang]

This is a Rabbit vs Hare. Yes, they are two different animals.

That's a great example!

Hare - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Jointed skulls, different number of chromosomes, being raised above ground, and several physical differences. Rabbits and Hares are very different creatures, and we can explain exactly why they are different creatures.

Is there some way we can do that with goblinoids, at least better than "I'll know it when I see it"? Your goblinoids are different stages of the life cycle of a single creature, but still very goblinoid. How can that be? What makes them so recognizeable as a group no matter how different they are, whether they are green or orange, different ancestries or stages in the same life-cycle?
We could even go really unusual: make them hatch from eggs - still goblinoid. Make them have four arms, live in my garage and eat toothpaste - still goblinoid. Very distinctive, no matter how much we put our own spin on them. How can we nail down that distinctiveness?

 

[Jd Smith1]

Culture, language, traits, I would think. And what Guang said.

I normally do not include bugbears as gobliniods. Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Orcs. Plus snotlings in WH.

In the Harn setting, gobliniods are egg-birthed, and have a insect-like culture.

 

[Guang]

Culture, language, traits, I would think. And what Guang said.

Culture: pathfinder goblin insane fear, d&d hobgoblin tyranny, eberron dar dedication to duty, harn insect-like as you mention - many different cultures. kobold insane fear, githyanki tyranny, human dedication to duty, ant-like formians - these don't seem to make them more goblinish. Unless there's a commonality I'm missing?
Language - this does make sense - but if a hobgoblin commander only speaks common and runs the city watch, or the goblin theives guild speaks only common, does this make them less goblinoid? Would I become more goblinoid by learning the language?
Traits - hmmmmm, yes - what kind of traits?

I normally do not include bugbears as gobliniods. Goblins, Hobgoblins, and Orcs. Plus snotlings in WH.

Snotlings are awesome! Would love to see them fleshed out more, in a d&d/pathfinder-esque way.

In the Harn setting, gobliniods are egg-birthed, and have a insect-like culture.

 

[embee]

From a GM standpoint, RAW, you are only required to do the funny screechy voice for goblins, not non-goblinoids.

 

[Jer]

As far back as my BECMI days I've always treated goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears as related to elves while orcs were not. This was not originally an intentional distancing from Tolkien but because goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears all come out of fairy lore as do elves so I figured "wouldn't it be cool if they were all related". Over time my personal take on goblins is that the goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear split is similar to the wood elf/high elf/dark elf split among elves. Fey peoples just have a tendency to take on different characteristics over time due to their magical natures to "fit their niche" better in a way that's different from evolutionary processes. (The idea that goblinoids are becoming Fey creatures in the Monsters of the Multiverse actually fits exactly how I've always thought of goblins - it's weird when the official line starts to follow your own homebrew ideas.)

I'm always changing what orcs are. But they're never goblins or fey in my games.

 

[Guang]

As far back as my BECMI days I've always treated goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears as related to elves while orcs were not. This was not originally an intentional distancing from Tolkien but because goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears all come out of fairy lore as do elves so I figured "wouldn't it be cool if they were all related". Over time my personal take on goblins is that the goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear split is similar to the wood elf/high elf/dark elf split among elves. Fey peoples just have a tendency to take on different characteristics over time due to their magical natures to "fit their niche" better in a way that's different from evolutionary processes. (The idea that goblinoids are becoming Fey creatures in the Monsters of the Multiverse actually fits exactly how I've always thought of goblins - it's weird when the official line starts to follow your own homebrew ideas.)

So in your game (and in the new canon) goblinoids are fey, like elves. This doesn't make them less goblinoid then they are in other settings. And elves and other fey wouldn't be more goblinoid than other humanoids. And there is no way that they could be. Why? There is a very wide dividing line between goblinoids and everything else - but what is that line, really?

I'm always changing what orcs are. But they're never goblins or fey in my games.

Good point. I could easily see Orcs as goblinoids. But I don't think I could ever see them as fey - they just don't feel fey.

 

[Jer]

So in your game (and in the new canon) goblinoids are fey, like elves. This doesn't make them less goblinoid then they are in other settings. And elves and other fey wouldn't be more goblinoid than other humanoids. And there is no way that they could be. Why? There is a very wide dividing line between goblinoids and everything else - but what is that line, really?

What makes elves elves even though there are countless varieties of them? They share a common physical characteristics, they have a common ancestry, they organize themselves into their own cultures that intertwine with each other but also are distinct from each other. To me the goblins are similar in that sense - they share some common physical characteristics and have a common ancestry. Where they differ with other humanoid species is the lack of common ancestry back to some original fey source.

 

[Guang]

What makes elves elves even though there are countless varieties of them? They share a common physical characteristics, they have a common ancestry, they organize themselves into their own cultures that intertwine with each other but also are distinct from each other. To me the goblins are similar in that sense - they share some common physical characteristics and have a common ancestry. Where they differ with other humanoid species is the lack of common ancestry back to some original fey source.

Ah, but elves are much easier - they at least
1. Live a long time
2. Have a special connection to something (whether nature, or magic itself, or spiders, or something else)
3. Have some sort of wisdom that we humans lack - like an elder sibling
4. Are separated from standard society in some way - whether by isolation, or by attitude, or emotionally, or by rank - they are just a bit - distant.
EDIT: forgot one -
5. Elves are very attractive by human standards

Pretty much applies in any fantasy setting I can think of. Unless we're talking about Santa's elves or Keebler elves. All very Tolkienesque, I guess.

Goblinoids are harder. I guess they
1. Are shorter-lived
2. Are gregarious, living in large groups (but then again bugbears aren't-but bugbears are weird. Call it the exception that proves the rule)
Anything else? These two could apply to almost anything/anyone