Parmandur
Book-Friend
Haven't seen the new film, but the earlier attempts were...flawed.Oh, I agree, but a lot of folks dont get all that from the films. Even readers can sometimes not catch the high context of the flaw, doom, repeat cycle.
Haven't seen the new film, but the earlier attempts were...flawed.Oh, I agree, but a lot of folks dont get all that from the films. Even readers can sometimes not catch the high context of the flaw, doom, repeat cycle.
Yeah, lets just cancel him too.
Fahrenheit 451 is a good choice!Sorry I'm late to the thread.
I love sci fi books in general, but I think the best ones are the classics--I'm talking LeGuin, Huxley, Bradbury, Orwell, Asimov. I really appreciate the cautionary tales of the future, the struggle of man vs. technology, the things we lose (identity, security, community) in the service of scientific advancement...more than any other genre of fiction, sci-fi takes a critical look at humanity and the direction it is taking.
My favorite is "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley. It's the best (albeit fictional) examination of ethics in science, and the consequences of ambition and curiosity. And it has the best line ever spoken by a villain: "I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other."
For those interested in my Top Ten:
Fahrenheit 451
10. "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" by Jules Verne
9. "The Foundation Trilogy" by Isaac Asimov
8. "Journey to the Center of the Earth" by Jules Verne
7. "The Time Machine" by H.G. Wells
6. "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley
5. "Fahrenheit 451" by Ray Bradbury
4. "I, Robot" by Isaac Asimov
3. "Slaughterhouse Five" by Kurt Vonnegut
2. "The Left Hand of Darkness" by Ursula LeGuin
1. "Frankenstein" by Mary Shelley
Honorable Mention:
"Flowers for Algernon" by Daniel Keyes
"Cat's Cradle" by Kurt Vonnegut
"The Martian Chronicles" by Ray Bradbury
Speaking of White saviors, I don't think it's a controversial take to say that Lawrence of Arabia is one of the best films of all time, full stop. But holy moley, do both the man and the movie have flaws.Criticizing Dune for its misogyny, anti-lgbtq themes and the whole white saviour bit isn’t “cancelling” in the slightest. It’s simply acknowledging the text.
Something can be fantastic, the best even, and still have flaws.
It’s not like any of these criticisms are coming out of left field. They are well supported and quite well known. Which is fine.
That’s the point of criticism.
You will not find a bigger fan of the final three Dune books than me, but I don't think a semi-immortal White nepo baby deciding what's best for all of humanity really goes against the White savior trope at all.And further down the road, (the other 5 novels that most people have not read) is when you get the brilliance of Herbert's narrative, you fully understand that its not about the "mighty-whitey" syndrome that you do see in so many other sci-fi films.
I have indeed not heard of this and it sounds kind of amazing, hope they get it on Kindle or other ePub at some point so I can actually read it.I'm going to pull one from left field that most of you will never have heard of.
The Tom Rynosseros saga by Terry Dowling. Set in a future Australia where western culture was in the decline and indigenous culture was in the ascendency. I've never read anything like it before or since. And it has sand ships.
Fascinating. I don't think I ever made it past book 2 of Dune, because it was such a steep decline in quality from the first one.The point is also clearly made in later books, where they flat out say that in order to produce humans who would never follow a tyrant again they had to grind them down for millennia under the heel of the worst of all possible tyrants: an immortal, prescient, religious messiah. All this so humans would never blindly, unquestioningly follow anyone ever again. They also selectively breed humans who are immune to prescience. Finally freeing humanity from tyranny and most forms of oppression. It's a cool point, but damn is it a slog to get there.
In Dune Messiah you get that Paul faces the terrible truth of what he has become and has created, essentially a cult of fanatics with a singular purpose. The remaining 5 novels are cautionary tales about corruption, power, genetics, religion.Fair, though I don't even consider the sequels: the flawed and Doomed nature of all these tropes is pretty clear just from the original text, amd Paul can see it, too.
you expand it better. Im gay, Im a veteran. It's not lost on me. But: Paul is not a savior. He's a cautionary tale. Read in out of context and historicity anything can be problematic to modern (post-modern) readers. The fact that it continuously gets adapted and sold proves it is relevant. That is one of the important elements of sci-fi, relevance and message. Im actually really happy that this thread has become a debate on DuneCriticizing Dune for its misogyny, anti-lgbtq themes and the whole white saviour bit isn’t “cancelling” in the slightest. It’s simply acknowledging the text.
Something can be fantastic, the best even, and still have flaws.
It’s not like any of these criticisms are coming out of left field. They are well supported and quite well known. Which is fine.
That’s the point of criticism.