What is the single best science fiction novel of all time?

[Queer Venger]

You will not find a bigger fan of the final three Dune books than me, but I don't think a semi-immortal White nepo baby deciding what's best for all of humanity really goes against the White savior trope at all.

That I think is Herbert's message in part, one person should not direct (dictate) the fate of an entire species. I gave your post a like because Paul is a semi-immortal, (prescient) white nepo baby, (no offense to any nepotism babies who frequent this forum).

 

[Queer Venger]

Speaking of White saviors, I don't think it's a controversial take to say that Lawrence of Arabia is one of the best films of all time, full stop. But holy moley, do both the man and the movie have flaws.

That doesn't make the film not fantastic, though -- I'd argue that a viewer who's critical of Lawrence and how the movie lionizes him at times probably gets more out of the film than those who don't.

It is, (next to Blade Runner) one of my favorite films of all time.
That said, it suffers from the white savior complex. No doubt it informed Herbert in writing Dune. Thus the point Im trying to make.

 

[Queer Venger]

I think I see the flaw in Herbert's plan. This is why everyone thinks it's yet another example of a white savior trope...because it is, for the first 4-5 gargantuan novels. Only at the end of all that do you get to the good bits. Considering the years between the start and the finish, I'm willing to bet he was criticized for doing the white savior trope and changed things later to show that no really it's not.

Or converse, he was really trying to highlight the problems with the white savior complex. I mean, Jesus, from a Semitic people, Jewish, working class is depicted whiter than Wonder bread. You find it in most fiction of the time. A write writes in his time, with the ethics and morals of her time; but good literature transcends that. Thus, Dune.

 

[Queer Venger]

by the way, no offense to Christians.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That I think is Herbert's message in part, one person should not direct (dictate) the fate of an entire species. I gave your post a like because Paul is a semi-immortal, (prescient) white nepo baby, (no offense to any nepotism babies who frequent this forum).

Oh, I think Herbert agrees with Leto II.

 

[Queer Venger]

Oh, I think Herbert agrees with Leto II.

well, Im assuming then that you were there, with Frank, when he wrote it, lol.

 

[Parmandur]

Oh, I think Herbert agrees with Leto II.

Frank Herbert was a lot of things (like, yikes), but I don't knownif I would accuse hik of agreeing with any of his characters on any point (or his own self on anything, dude had issues).

 

[Queer Venger]

Frank Herbert was a lot of things (like, yikes), but I don't knownif I would accuse hik of agreeing with any of his characters on any point (or his own self on anything, dude had issues).

I have issues. We all have issues. But what Im saying is that what I read and interpret from a novel is as valid as the author's intention. I can read racism in Moby Dick, but I can also read other themes, relevant to me. Lovecraft was a racist, so was Thomas Jefferson, but they lived in their time. Their works are of value because of the themes they revealed, the vision, so to speak. I am going to say this, I wonder if the intention of this post was to "reveal" to the community "what is right sci-fi" and what is wrong. I naughty word hate that naughty word, I hope I don't find it in this forum.

 

[Hussar]

I have issues. We all have issues. But what Im saying is that what I read and interpret from a novel is as valid as the author's intention. I can read racism in Moby Dick, but I can also read other themes, relevant to me. Lovecraft was a racist, so was Thomas Jefferson, but they lived in their time. Their works are of value because of the themes they revealed, the vision, so to speak. I am going to say this, I wonder if the intention of this post was to "reveal" to the community "what is right sci-fi" and what is wrong. I naughty word hate that naughty word, I hope I don't find it in this forum.

I’m thinking you might just perhaps be projecting intent that isn’t there. No one is even remotely talking about cancelling or what is “right” SF.

It’s simply a recognition of well established issues with a work. It doesn’t mean anything more than simple recognition.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

@payn

Sorry, been meaning to reply to you about Hyperion.

Have you read it?

If yes, then there's nothing more I can say. You don't like it, that's fair.

If no (or haven't read it all the way through) it appeals to me on several levels. I love a bit of grand scale in my sci-fi and it has that in spades: galactic scale and thousands of years. There's transhumanism. There's AI running our lives and people living in artificial realities. There's quantum tunnelling. There's Romantic poets and some Chaucer allusions. There's even a little reference to Buddhist philosopher Linchi (aka Linji and Rinzai.) All the references in the book sent me happily down many rabbit holes.

Add to that a well thought out plot, interesting central characters, and a generally optimistic tone.