What is the single best science fiction novel of all time?

[Mannahnin]

Yeah, lets just cancel him too.

I don't think anyone's cancelling a dead guy.

We can take his flaws into account in evaluating his work, though. Even if we like it and think it's important and influential.

 

[Parmandur]

That would be a better defense if the point was made in the text, but it was not. Instead the Fremen are presented as a separate cultural group that is largely looked down on by the Great Houses (representing Imperial culture).

But, even if we leave that out - foreign dude who is not of their faith shows up and becomes their messiah. Not a great look.

But all of those narratives are undermined in the novel itself, by the characters themselves...it really is quite brilliant in that regard, a big part of why it holds up.

 

[Mannahnin]

reductionist and clearly you did not read it analytically and didnt get the point. Armchair criticism is not critical analysis. Paul is not a hero, he is not a "white-savior" he is the product of generations of carefully selective breeding. Herbert's point, which you fail to grasp, is that it is a cautionary tale about following political figures, messiahs and religious movements. Things that almost 50 years later are still very relevant to our world problems. Cheers.

I agree with your points but I think the discussion would be better served if they were made in a little more friendly a manner.

Also, you missed the chance to point out that the prophecies the Fremen were following were propaganda survival tools instilled by past generations of Bene Gesserit.

 

[overgeeked]

I agree with your points but I think the discussion would be better served if they were made in a little more friendly a manner.

Also, you missed the chance to point out that the prophecies the Fremen were following were propaganda survival tools instilled by past generations of Bene Gesserit.

The point is also clearly made in later books, where they flat out say that in order to produce humans who would never follow a tyrant again they had to grind them down for millennia under the heel of the worst of all possible tyrants: an immortal, prescient, religious messiah. All this so humans would never blindly, unquestioningly follow anyone ever again. They also selectively breed humans who are immune to prescience. Finally freeing humanity from tyranny and most forms of oppression. It's a cool point, but damn is it a slog to get there.

 

[payn]

But all of those narratives are undermined in the novel itself, by the characters themselves...it really is quite brilliant in that regard, a big part of why it holds up.

I think the reason this often gets missed, is that you dont really see the fallout until later novels. One of the reasons I really enjoyed the 2000 SciFi channel adaptions is they went further down the road with Dune.

 

[Queer Venger]

I agree with your points but I think the discussion would be better served if they were made in a little more friendly a manner.

Also, you missed the chance to point out that the prophecies the Fremen were following were propaganda survival tools instilled by past generations of Bene Gesserit.

that's fair, I can do better about my tone, I guess I shouldn't react to posts poo-pooing on my choice of best sci-fi novel of all time. Cheers.

 

[Parmandur]

I think the reason this often gets missed, is that you dont really see the fallout until later novels. One of the reasons I really enjoyed the 2000 SciFi channel adaptions is they went further down the road with Dune.

Fair, though I don't even consider the sequels: the flawed and Doomed nature of all these tropes is pretty clear just from the original text, amd Paul can see it, too.

 

[Queer Venger]

I think the reason this often gets missed, is that you dont really see the fallout until later novels. One of the reasons I really enjoyed the 2000 SciFi channel adaptions is they went further down the road with Dune.

And further down the road, (the other 5 novels that most people have not read) is when you get the brilliance of Herbert's narrative, you fully understand that its not about the "mighty-whitey" syndrome that you do see in so many other sci-fi films.

 

[payn]

Fair, though I don't even consider the sequels: the flawed and Doomed nature of all these tropes is pretty clear just from the original text, amd Paul can see it, too.

Oh, I agree, but a lot of folks dont get all that from the films. Even readers can sometimes not catch the high context of the flaw, doom, repeat cycle.

 

[overgeeked]

And further down the road, (the other 5 novels that most people have not read) is when you get the brilliance of Herbert's narrative, you fully understand that its not about the "mighty-whitey" syndrome that you do see in so many other sci-fi films.

I think I see the flaw in Herbert's plan. This is why everyone thinks it's yet another example of a white savior trope...because it is, for the first 4-5 gargantuan novels. Only at the end of all that do you get to the good bits. Considering the years between the start and the finish, I'm willing to bet he was criticized for doing the white savior trope and changed things later to show that no really it's not.