dave2008
Legend
4e had saving throws, but they were different.
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TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
D&D is a package. Its not boiled down to some essence, or just a few things. It’s a bunch of stuff together. You can pull out a few bits or put in a few others and its ok, but as some point you have lost D&D.
Its also an RPG with broad appeal. Complexity, focus, seriousness (or lack thereof) and play style can vary greatly within and across groups, as much or more so then just about any other RPG. But enough of the package needs to be retained to keep that broad appeal.
Versions of D&D have taken things out that where latter put back, and included things, many things, that did not stand the test of time and don’t have to be in D&D. The granular character creation and corner case rule of 3e? Don’t have to be in D&D. 4e’s similar power structures across characters and flat play experience over the campaign? Again, these can be left out of the package.
Most of the package came together in the early 80s, but a few things have been added and stuck. High AC good AC, PCs that can survive low levels without blatant DM fudging, at will magic. These probably have a future in the game.
You can take 5e, take all the things that where also in D&D in the early 80s, and from that get D&D. Everything from d4 damage for daggers to githyanki that ride red dragons…
…to, especially, gnomes and paladins. All part of the essential package.
Its also an RPG with broad appeal. Complexity, focus, seriousness (or lack thereof) and play style can vary greatly within and across groups, as much or more so then just about any other RPG. But enough of the package needs to be retained to keep that broad appeal.
Versions of D&D have taken things out that where latter put back, and included things, many things, that did not stand the test of time and don’t have to be in D&D. The granular character creation and corner case rule of 3e? Don’t have to be in D&D. 4e’s similar power structures across characters and flat play experience over the campaign? Again, these can be left out of the package.
Most of the package came together in the early 80s, but a few things have been added and stuck. High AC good AC, PCs that can survive low levels without blatant DM fudging, at will magic. These probably have a future in the game.
You can take 5e, take all the things that where also in D&D in the early 80s, and from that get D&D. Everything from d4 damage for daggers to githyanki that ride red dragons…
…to, especially, gnomes and paladins. All part of the essential package.
Laurefindel
Legend
You may have said that as a jest, but the ampersand immediately evokes the thought of D&D for me. Other games use the ampersand, but they all do it as a tribute or reference to D&D, so it owns it. I see an ampersand, I think of D&D.
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
Ha! That quote was in response to me, and I was so perplexed/flummoxed at the time that I didn't even respond. I had a similar reaction: "Whaaa....really?"
Apparently you found it equally...odd.
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
Holy Avenger rapiers, right?
Sacrosanct
Legend
DnD is Freetos, Cheetos, Mt. dew, M&Ms that doubles as PCs and monsters, laughter with friends, and The Scorpions playing in the background. It’s your mom bringing in a sandwich tray. Your dad yelling at you when you’re gonna stop playing grab ass with your friends, and get your chores done before he gets pissed. It’s party pizzas left and right.
It’s memories.
It’s memories.
rogermexico
Explorer
I just wanted to say that this really resonated with me. One thing I want to add is I think it's important that D&D is weird. The Middle Earth adventurers go underground and find goblins and ogres, sure, but they also find telepathic space aliens with squid heads that want to eat their brains, and floating megalomaniacal eyeballs covered in smaller disintegration-ray firing eyeballs.
Connected to your point in the first paragraph, I think if that weirdness gets pushed too far, it stops feeling like D&D. But there needs to be at least some of that pulpy, genre-bending, 70s heavy-metal weirdness for the overall feel to be right.
Zardnaar
Legend
Yeeessss. And a stream powered one attached to a giant hamster warbeast.
I think your initial post and list really hits at the "core" of what D&D is/why D&D is D&D and other rpgs are not.
The 6 abilities (SIWDCCh, and yes, that is the "correct" order
)
The core/"big" 4 classes: Ftr, MU, Cle, Thf.
HP -not "health," not "life points," not anything else. "Hit Points."
Saves are core and indispensable to the game....whether that is most efficiently 3 or 6 or differentiated by class or race or what have you. Saves have to be in there.
I think the arcana of the time[-ing] system is worthy of a mention. Rounds v. Melee Rounds. How long? How many rounds in a turn?You mean a "turn - 10 minutes" or "it's my turn?" How many rounds in a minute? How many turns in an hour? How many what where now? They shift. They change. They make more sense/have been cleaned up or streamlined more than they, perhaps, were. But I feel that getting your head around the measuring and imagining of time that passes in "in game" time is decidedly a "Why's D&D D&D?" thing.
I would add the "core" species. Humans, elves, dwarves, halflings. Ripped from Tolkien and all, they've been there from the word go. Without those 4 (at least), by definition, it "can't" be D&D.
I would also add, for all of the flack it gets and it seems everyone likes to ignore it these days, Alignment "makes D&D D&D." At least on the Lawful-Neutral-Chaos axis is a quintessential and purposefully included in D&D thing. Other games/systems do it too...Why? Because it's always been in D&D. The [whether purposeful or accidental or reluctant] "heroes" going up against the villains, the "Forces of Good" saving the day/world/multiverse from the "Forces of Evil," is essential to not just fantasy role-playing games, but a good story of/in any milieu.
EDIT TO ADD:
The separation of magics/spells between MUs and Cles....and thus carrying over/through the game in all incarnations, whatever the titles/names for them. Other systems use different magical organizations...either teased out into every possible different facet/contingency or different magics based on magical practices, to the all lumped together (a la some neo-pagan/modern day idea) of "all magic is magic" with spells divided by ethical or moral intent, i.e. "white/grey/black" magic, or other thematic groupings ("blue" magic for the air, "red" magic for dealing damage/blood/war, "green" magic for nature/plants, etc...) and different character classes/concepts use whatever "color" of magic best suits their individual flavor. But all of that has blossomed and branched and interwoven over the decades all began from the simple idea that a "wizardy guy" has/used different magic [different spell list] from a "priestly guy" and nary the twain shall meet...though nowadays they meet, maybe, a little here and there.
/EDIT
The 6 abilities (SIWDCCh, and yes, that is the "correct" order
)The core/"big" 4 classes: Ftr, MU, Cle, Thf.
HP -not "health," not "life points," not anything else. "Hit Points."
Saves are core and indispensable to the game....whether that is most efficiently 3 or 6 or differentiated by class or race or what have you. Saves have to be in there.
I think the arcana of the time[-ing] system is worthy of a mention. Rounds v. Melee Rounds. How long? How many rounds in a turn?You mean a "turn - 10 minutes" or "it's my turn?" How many rounds in a minute? How many turns in an hour? How many what where now? They shift. They change. They make more sense/have been cleaned up or streamlined more than they, perhaps, were. But I feel that getting your head around the measuring and imagining of time that passes in "in game" time is decidedly a "Why's D&D D&D?" thing.
I would add the "core" species. Humans, elves, dwarves, halflings. Ripped from Tolkien and all, they've been there from the word go. Without those 4 (at least), by definition, it "can't" be D&D.
I would also add, for all of the flack it gets and it seems everyone likes to ignore it these days, Alignment "makes D&D D&D." At least on the Lawful-Neutral-Chaos axis is a quintessential and purposefully included in D&D thing. Other games/systems do it too...Why? Because it's always been in D&D. The [whether purposeful or accidental or reluctant] "heroes" going up against the villains, the "Forces of Good" saving the day/world/multiverse from the "Forces of Evil," is essential to not just fantasy role-playing games, but a good story of/in any milieu.
EDIT TO ADD:
The separation of magics/spells between MUs and Cles....and thus carrying over/through the game in all incarnations, whatever the titles/names for them. Other systems use different magical organizations...either teased out into every possible different facet/contingency or different magics based on magical practices, to the all lumped together (a la some neo-pagan/modern day idea) of "all magic is magic" with spells divided by ethical or moral intent, i.e. "white/grey/black" magic, or other thematic groupings ("blue" magic for the air, "red" magic for dealing damage/blood/war, "green" magic for nature/plants, etc...) and different character classes/concepts use whatever "color" of magic best suits their individual flavor. But all of that has blossomed and branched and interwoven over the decades all began from the simple idea that a "wizardy guy" has/used different magic [different spell list] from a "priestly guy" and nary the twain shall meet...though nowadays they meet, maybe, a little here and there.
/EDIT
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