D&D 4E What will happen if 4E doesn't use the OGL?

[Kae'Yoss]

What do you mean, "if"? I'm quite convinced that it will be like this. They seem intent on taking back everything about D&D that they can.

 

[BluSponge]

If you mean that people will not want to always play a 3.5 D&D game I do not disagree. Surely something will come along that will have people interested in trying something different. But I think you might be misreading what some people are meaning. If I am not mistaken, some people are making the point that the OGL is in place forever and that any materials released under will always be available for use under that license. There may even be a great many games that will utilize those OGC materials yet appear to be quite different from 3.5 D&D, some of those might even be the ones that replace D&D in some people's hearts. Of course, I might be misreading what you are saying, too.

Oh no, I'm not misreading that at all. WotC could release "4e" as a cell phone game and it would have ZERO impact on the OGL. People can release games based on it from here to eternity.

But that's not what I'm saying.

If WotC doesn't make 4e OGL-compatible, all third party *d20* publications will dry up inside of a year. Don't kid yourself into thinking that some great horde of DnD players are going to rise up and say, "enough is enough!" It starts that way, but then the WotC marketing department kicks into high gear and starts to divvy out the shiny. After 6-8 months, people will be ready to jump ship, even if its a radical departure. Why? Well because people like shiny things, and it says Dungeons and Dragons on the cover. That's not to disparage anyone's tastes, only stating what is. There will be a significant minority of late adopters, and a small number of hold outs. But eventually, 3/3.5 hangers on will find themselves in the same smoke filled room as the 1st ed grognards hashing it out about the good ole days.

Of course, how the market adapts after that depends greatly on just how radical the departure is from the current SRD.

Tom

 

[Mark CMG]

If WotC doesn't make 4e OGL-compatible, all third party *d20* publications will dry up inside of a year.

By "dry up" do you mean that those who produce, and only want to produce, nothing but d20 materials would go out of business within a year? Because it would happen far sooner than that, since WotC would not likely allow use of the d20 System License, but if you mean OGL publications would cease to be made, then you are obviously mistaken. Games like Mutants and Masterminds, Spycraft, and others will likely be around for a long time, with new editions periodically.


I get the feeling, though, that what you mean and what I am reading might still not be synching up quite yet.

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

As has been mentioned earlier, the original d20/OGL options will still exist and could be tailored as much as possible to match the mechanics of 4e (much in the way that OSRIC uses the d20 SRD to make an OGL SRD similar to a different, non-open system).

I think that 3.5e will have a generous lifespan past the announcement of 4e, but by the time the first 4e revision hits (4.25e), most people will have switched -- assuming that the changes in 4e are for the better.

 

[BluSponge]

(1) Go to the biggest and most popular D20 producers and offer them a lucrative license to produce 4th Edition support material. The sure money (and probably the big money) will be with 4th Edition, so these companies would be sorely pressed to turn down this offer. When they take it, you live with them producing material for 3 or 4 or 5 years and then you simply refuse to renew the license.

The companies that would have formed the core of a "3rd Edition Resistance" are thus used to push the ascendancy of 4th Edition instead. By the time the license expires, the war is already over and 4th Edition wins.

Absolutely! Like I said, a game with an audience the size of DnD needs a BIG ecosystem. When 4th edition is released, they are going to need adventures. WotC can't fill that void and still turn a profit, so it will almost without a doubt issue a very exclusive license to 2-3 different companies with a good track record in this department and good relations with WotC. Paizo and Necromancer are almost shoe-ins for this. Maybe Goodman too (though if not, I'm sure the Trolls will be knocking on their door for C&C support). But it will be far more limited than the OGL so as to prevent the glut that happened early on with 3e and keep WotC the go-to company for splatbooks.

And as far as 3e resistance goes, I think a few companies will give it the old college try. PDF only efforts may even last a few years. But without DnD slapped on the side of the machine, those companies are going to be highly marginalized. Where the resistance will lie is with companies who have developed strong OGL properties like Conan, C&C, True20, and M&M. But that's it.

Tom

 

[francisca]

What do you think will happen if that comes to pass?

I think I'll keep running my 1e Greyhawk game and playing in my buddy's 3.5 Dragonlance game, and not skip a beat.

 

[BluSponge]

By "dry up" do you mean that those who produce, and only want to produce, nothing but d20 materials would go out of business within a year? Because it would happen far sooner than that, since WotC would not likely allow use of the d20 System License, but if you mean OGL publications would cease to be made, then you are obviously mistaken. Games like Mutants and Masterminds, Spycraft, and others will likely be around for a long time, with new editions periodically.

No, I mean companies that produce product meant to be specifically compatible with DnD 3.5 by way of the OGL (or what would qualify as a d20 product today).

OGL publications that you list will keep on going.

Tom

 

[Mark CMG]

No, I mean companies that produce product meant to be specifically compatible with DnD 3.5 by way of the OGL (or what would qualify as a d20 product today).

As one who owns a company that does just that, if 4E doesn't include OGL support, it wouldn't stop me from producing the kind of material that could be used. 4E would have to be incredibly different to negate the usefulness of much of the kind of content that I can produce under the OGL, or even otherwise (since source books and other material need not be system or setting specific). There are a lot of small companies like mine that really don't need thousands upon thousands of customers (though that would be nice, mind you) to keep on chugging along at status quo. eProducts and POD are something I've done now for over five years and since what I do is legal, legitimate, and a labor of love, I see no reason to stop.

 

[rgard]

Between the loss of Dragon and Dungeon, and now the end of Dragonlance, things have reached a fever pitch in the (well-connected) D&D community. So then, let's ponder the worst-case scenario: what if 4E comes out, and doesn't use the OGL or anything like it, reverting to a totally closed-content game.

(As far as the worst-case goes, I'm not considering D&D ceasing production altogether. Hasbro wouldn't sit on it unused; they'd sell it, and whoever bought it would want their money's worth, so there'd be more new material. I just don't see the death of D&D happening...at this point, anyway.)

So, 4E is out and only WotC (or whoever) can produce materials for it. What happens to all of the other publishers? What happens to the industry?

Sadly, I don't think the third-parties would fare very well. It's been said by many people on many occasions that WotC basically IS the tabletop RPG industry, and where it goes, people will follow. This spells bad news for companies that rely on the 3.5 rules for their games.

Many, I think, will try to rely on purely using the OGL to continue to produce 3.5-compatible products, especially in PDF format. At the beginning, there'll be a sizable part of the gamer population that wouldn't want to leave, and these'd remain a viable market. However, it likely wouldn't be too long before that crowd shrank, and said companies eventually faded out of existence. The ones who'd last the longest would likely be those using their own variants of the system (such as Green Ronin with Mutants & Masterminds).

Eventually, though, all of them would return from whence they came, taking us back to the days of 1E/2E when, save for a few licensed products from the occasional other company, D&D was an isolated system, and you'd need to learn another rules set to play a different RPG.

I'd personally prefer not to go back to that, since I'm still being continually dazzled by what third-party companies are able to produce. But that's not up to me, and it may not be the standard for much longer.

What do you think will happen if that comes to pass?

I'll probably stick with OGL products. I own way too many d20/OGL books, pdfs and effing D&D minis to go converting to 4e...this assumes that there is conversion work needed. Maybe if WotC mailed me new cards for the D&D minis, I may convert my games to 4e. And no, I don't want to have to print free versions.

I really do think it will be too much work to convert to 4e. Throw in no OGL with 4e and it's a done deal I won't convert.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

As far as I can see, 'compatible with D&D' d20 products are basically dead in print already, with the exception of adventures.

Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms RPG material would arguably be better off if it were to synch up system-wise with their important business (miniatures wargaming); in any case their releases are vanishingly rare. Green Ronin puts out adventures and .pdfs but otherwise focuses on their OGL lines, True20 and Mutants & Masterminds. Necromancer and Paizo are basically going all-adventure, all the time. Goodman seems to have scaled back or eliminated their non-adventure products. Sword and Sorcery Studios/White Wolf no longer does d20 material. Rokugan, Call of Cthulhu and 7th Sea are no longer-dual statted; BESM isn't, either, and its new edition is under White Wolf's label. Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes and, presumably, the forthcoming Monte Cook's World of Darkness have become Malhavoc's focus, and in any case Monte says he intends to leave the industry to write novels for the forseeable future after McWoD's release. Mongoose is almost exclusively supporting its OGL games, one prominent example of which (Runequest) provides an entirely separate OGL rulesset.

Compatible-with-D&D, and especially Compatible-with-d20 Modern, products are still all the rage in .pdf, but in print they seem to be going away very rapidly without a closed 4e.