D&D (2024) What would be the path between Wildshape Templates and Use an Beast statblock?

[Neonchameleon]

I actually want a path that splits things:

• Ordinary druids can transform only into ordinary beasts and so use statblocks
• Moon druids are the really versatile shifters and can turn into things like owlbears even if owlbears don't exist in that setting. And use templates because they get to design what they turn into

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think the most popular Idea would be having beast extra hp, multiattack but str and dex replaced by your wisdom.

 

[Dausuul]

And you can't make different, scaling wildshape templates for every beast in the game.

Why not?

I mean, seriously, why not? The ability to scale up a beast's statblock would be useful to DMs as well as players; sometimes I want the PCs facing a giant wolf from the elder age instead of a regular wolf. And once WotC nailed down the basic formula for adjusting beast stats, it would be pretty easy to apply in most cases.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Why not?

I mean, seriously, why not? The ability to scale up a beast's statblock would be useful to DMs as well as players; sometimes I want the PCs facing a giant wolf from the elder age instead of a regular wolf. And once WotC nailed down the basic formula for adjusting beast stats, it would be pretty easy to apply in most cases.

I'm coming at this from a player-facing Wildshape perspective.

1. First of all, it would have to happen in the Monster Manual, which is a non-starter for me, because no player should ever have to reference a book other than the PH for a primary class ability. Never. It just doesn't work for new players.
2. Monster Manual Stat blocks should be designed and balanced as DM tools/threats, not as player options. Those two goals are mutually exclusive. Monsters may have burst damage attacks and recharges that are appropriate for monsters that last for 3 rounds before dying, but are broken for PCs that are desgined to persist through every fight of a campaign.
3. If you create a template system that scales every Beast in the Monster Manual from CR 1/8 to CR 20, you have to do it for every creature in the book, but Beasts aren't the same at the same CR. There are other variables. A CR 2 Bear would have different stats, as well as offensive and defensive capabilities, than a CR 2 Wolf, just for starters. You can't have a completely different mechanical template system just for one creature type. Also, if Wildshape or Polymorph allowed one to turn into a Monstrosity (like an Owlbear), the mechanics would need to exist to allow for it.
4. Every Monster entry basically either becomes a template formula, or if not, the player would have to map out each different beast with the formula. This doesn't work for anyone who is against the template idea. (At least with the PH Wildshape template idea, there would be one template formula that exists in the PH druid class description, that only needs updated once per level.)

Now I know that 4E monster statblocks was built around scaling monsters, but those weren't player-facing statblocks. While I am not opposed to easy scaling rules for all monsters in the 2024 MM, I would be very surprised if the designers included those rules. They have talked about their intent to re-balance Monsters to their specific CRs, and have not mentioned scaling.

 

[mellored]

I actually want a path that splits things:

• Ordinary druids can transform only into ordinary beasts and so use statblocks
• Moon druids are the really versatile shifters and can turn into things like owlbears even if owlbears don't exist in that setting. And use templates because they get to design what they turn into

Agreed, mostly.

At least at higher levels (like 10), let the moon turn into pegasus, unicorns, 9 tailed fox, and other "monstrosities".
And then Godzilla at highest levels.
Possibly costing spell slots.

I.e

Level 10: Chimera Form
When you wild shape, you can spend a spell slot to gain an additional feature, depending on the slot you used.
Level 2:
huge size: increase damage by 1d4 and reach by 5'
Shell: +2 AC
Level 3:
wings: give a fly speed of 40'
Elemental damage:

Level 14: Kaiju From
When you wild shape, you can expend 2 spell slots. In addition, you gain the following options.
Level 7: gargantuan size, increase reach by 15'
Level 9: your form is now permanent.

Or stuff like that.

 

[Shardstone]

The problem with templates, is that building your own statblock is tedious, let alone 6 or 7 statblocks. With pre-generated, unique statblocks, you just pull it up, use your own mental scores and HP, and you're ready to go.

What you call tedious I call fun.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

DavyGreenwind said:
The problem with templates, is that building your own statblock is tedious, let alone 6 or 7 statblocks. With pre-generated, unique statblocks, you just pull it up, use your own mental scores and HP, and you're ready to go.

What you call tedious I call fun.

A core class in the PH should not require a new player to reference any book other than the PH.

Monster Templates in spells and class abilities are proven to work. That should be how it works for Druid Wildshape too.

The mechanical aspect can work very easily, with the "tedious" work being needing to update only 1 statblock once per level, and the "fun" work being when you get to choose the modular abilities offered by Wildshape, letting you represent your chosen shape. Even then, it would be easy to remember ahead of time which of the available abilities best represent the wildshapes you prefer.

 

[mellored]

Might be a bit brute force. But just adding beasts of every CR up to 6.

Level 1 wolf cub
Level 2 wolf
Level 3 alpha wolf
Level 4 dire wolf cub
Level 5 dire wolf
Level 6 alpha dire wolf.

Then do that for bears, spiders, snakes...

 

[Undrave]

The thing with their previous templates is that they were BAD. If they want to give us templates, they need to put more thoughts into how people actually USE Wild Shape.

First you have the Combat forms. I think these can be roughly divided into three different builds, with focuses on bulk, damage or disruption (like a giant spider's web ability or a giant frog's ranged grapple), but maybe that would be part of an additional layer of customization I mention below.

Then you have the spying/scouting forms, which are usually really small and innocuous types of animals with some form of traversal ability, like wall climbing.

And finally you have travel forms. These grant you ways to traverse the land, either through additional speed, the ability to swim or the ability to fly.

Each of those templates would then be further modified in some ways probably by picking up traits from some sort of list, maybe themed after types of animals, with some subclasses granting you new traits you can pick up (the Moon Druid, for exemple, would allow you to pick 'Predator' traits that grant you more powerful attacks). Basically, you'd have a few basic stat blocks with additional themed templates on top.

To me, this is a much better way to do it than 'land/sea/air animal' or whatever.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

This is a debate that I think to some degree comes down to the gamer vs. role-player divide that has been, to some degree, part of D&D's DNA since the beginning. I think to a gamer the template option makes perfect sense, whereas to a role-player it is a nonstarter. I often find that it is hard for some folks to believe that many players, probably most, are not hardcore optimizers, and care more about aesthetic choices than about numbers. Sometimes a lot more.

I believe that you may have those the wrong way around. I can assure you that the people who like paging through several different sourcebooks to find the optimal form for this specific situation aren't the ones who focus on roleplaying.
Roleplayers will often want their druid to turn into the same Wolf/Bear/Snake shape at 15th level that they turned into at 2nd level.
The idea that role-players are fine re-naming a "panther" statblock to be a leopard, but are unwilling to do the same for the "agile predator" statblock is a little weird and does not follow my experience.