D&D (2024) What would be the path between Wildshape Templates and Use an Beast statblock?

[DEFCON 1]

I just want the reprint and rebalance of 3,5e PHB2 Shapeshift druid variant.

You might need to go back and play 3.5E for that then.

 

[Horwath]

You might need to go back and play 3.5E for that then.

Might be the truth, but for me it's the simplest and most easier to balance.

Set STR to some value,
Set AC to some value,
Determine amount and damage of natural attacks,
Determine how much and if any temp HPs are added.

player just needs to flavor the looks of the animal, vermin, plant or elemental shifted in.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Why not do both, make one standard and the other optional. It is not like the templates take up a lot of space.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

For the stat block option to be viable for me it needs to do the following:

1. Player is not penalized for not having access to the Monster Manual. The Player's Handbook must include a nice spread of iconic forms and unique animal traits. If a beast can do it in the core rules, there's an option for it in the Player's Handbook.

2. A way to adjust stat blocks to produce missing forms, or extend the usefulness of an existing form. If there's no fox stat block the player should be able to easily adjust an existing form to make it, and If they just want to turn into a bear they should be able to play a CR6 bear.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

For the stat block option to be viable for me it needs to do the following:

1. Player is not penalized for not having access to the Monster Manual. The Player's Handbook must include a nice spread of iconic forms and unique animal traits. If a beast can do it in the core rules, there's an option for it in the Player's Handbook.

2. A way to adjust stat blocks to produce missing forms, or extend the usefulness of an existing form. If there's no fox stat block the player should be able to easily adjust an existing form to make it, and If they just want to turn into a bear they should be able to play a CR6 bear.

But MM monsters don't scale in CR. The stat block format is so limiting. If I am 7th level and I want to shift into a wolf and fight, I'm going to suck fighting as CR 7 creature, and a single hit from such a creature would devasate me.

In order for it to work, there will already have to be existing PH rules (or a template) that tells the player what stats from the MM stat block are replaced. The higher level you are, the greater the threats and you have to scale against those threats. Becoming a wolf doesn't cut it against a CR 7 monster.

1. There will likely be a survivability buff, whether that is scaling Temp HP, or something else.
2. Attack Mods and Damage have to scale to be competitive.
3. Physical ability scores and Mental ability scores will treated differently. Will the player have to memorize different physical ability scores per stat block? That is literally requiring to have a non-player book open for reference.

Having to use MM stat blocks is just terrible design for both balance and theme. If I am fighting a CR 10 monster, I can't wildshape into a wolf and be effective. If the Wildshape rules change so much about a "wolf" so that it is able to be used against a CR10 monster, then it's best if those rules are clearly presented in template form. And you can't make different, scaling wildshape templates for every beast in the game.

 

[Parmandur]

But MM monsters don't scale in CR. The stat block format is so limiting. If I am 7th level and I want to shift into a wolf and fight, I'm going to suck fighting as CR 7 creature, and a single hit from such a creature would devasate me.

In order for it to work, there will already have to be existing PH rules (or a template) that tells the player what stats from the MM stat block are replaced. The higher level you are, the greater the threats and you have to scale against those threats. Becoming a wolf doesn't cut it against a CR 7 monster.

1. There will likely be a survivability buff, whether that is scaling Temp HP, or something else.
2. Attack Mods and Damage have to scale to be competitive.
3. Physical ability scores and Mental ability scores will treated differently. Will the player have to memorize different physical ability scores per stat block? That is literally requiring to have a non-player book open for reference.

Having to use MM stat blocks is just terrible design for both balance and theme. If I am fighting a CR 10 monster, I can't wildshape into a wolf and be effective. If the Wildshape rules change so much about a "wolf" so that it is able to be used against a CR10 monster, then it's best if those rules are clearly presented in template form. And you can't make different, scaling wildshape templates for every beast in the game.

Simple solution: keep the MM scraping rules the same as they are now, provide the fully scaling refluffable templates as an option so a Druid can have options if they want, but won't be caught flat-footed either.

 

[Vael]

What I'd guess is what people here are more or less musing on ... a Druid can prepare a limited number of forms (like the last playtest), some of which can be templates. So a Druid could prepare Predator of the Land (generic attack template) and two CR 1/4 beasts.

 

[Remathilis]

Honestly, it will probably be something akin to "you can use your spell attack bonus or the beasts, whichever is higher" sort of adjustment so that a shape can use either your stats or it's, whichever is more advantageous.

 

[Kobold Stew]

For a LOT of druid players, the class fantasy is transforming into animals, not a pick and choose template. The template option is just going to keep being downvoted, no matter often it gets repeated. It's not about optimization, it's about how people see druids.

I feel this is overstated, and there will be, inevitably, a sampling bias.

My firm belief is: A better template option could have been approved, and they threw what they had out too soon. The survey didn't ask a question that was granular enough, and (because of the fiasco at the start of the year) they wanted to appear responsive to the fanbase.

Combing statblocks is tedious: as a result the process gets outsourced to the internet (google "best wildshape options") which is not play, and means that most options are not pursued in any case. It might as well be a statblock.

More importantly, from my point of view, is that the 2014 Moon druid is the only class you (for all practical terms) need another book (or the internet) to play. That is, objectively, terrible design: if the class can't be presented in the PHB, then it shouldn't be included.

I'm someone who likes and plays druids, and I avoid Moon Druid precisely because of the combing stat-blocks aspect. It's not fun, and it's not strategic, and this is in part why (according to Crawford et al) Druids are one of the least played classes.

I feel like a lot of folks are just talking past each other on this issue. There's a lot of "this would be better because..." vs. "that's just not what I want to play." I don't see the former convincing the latter because they are really arguing about two different things.

Here, however we agree, and I do not expect the above will convince you.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Accepting that the idea of generic statblocks was rejected, I feel the best we can hope for is a handful of animal shapes, included in the PHB, that grow with the class. If you want to turn into a wolf or a bear, that should be as mechanically effective throughout your career as a druid.

Wildshaping will only be successful for me if it meets these tests:
1. everything is in the PHB.
2. changing into a given form (e.g. wolf) at level 5, 10, and 15 will be (roughly) as effective as other shapes at those levels.
3. there is a range of creatures (wolf, bear, spider, something swimmy (croc?), something flying (giant eagle?), one or two more) -- while still possibly allowing "or a CR x beast from the Monster Manual" (to prevent power creep with subsequent books).