What's a "unique being" for purposes of Gate?

[Piratecat]

Interesting point. One balance for that in my game is that almost everyone powerful gets that way by having allies. If the group does this to the wrong person, they'll probably be very sorry about the reaction it draws.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The big problem with the literal reading is that the calling function proves itself an even more effective form of scry-buff-teleport for the near-epic brigade - buff yourselves up, summon them and command them to "fight us to the death" for 1r/caster level. They're shorn of their allies and defenses, you've got all your allies and a dozen rounds to buff up first. It wouldn't be a long fight.

What stops them from doing that anyway?

Wizard: "I summon ... a Pit Fiend!"

Party: "Smackdown applied!"

etc. ad infinitum

 

[blargney the second]

I got mad XPs in Baldur's Gate by repeatedly summoning pit fiends and cacodaemons.

-blarg

 

[Piratecat]

I prefer to summon cocoadaemons.

"Mmmm, red hot chocolate-y goodness!"

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi everyone,

I think I'm in the same school of thought as Patryn of Elvenshae.

I could see that as a situation where foresight could actually prove useful for a high ranking devil or demon, if it were available.

The big problem with the literal reading is that the calling function proves itself an even more effective form of scry-buff-teleport for the near-epic brigade - buff yourselves up, summon them and command them to "fight us to the death" for 1r/caster level. They're shorn of their allies and defenses, you've got all your allies and a dozen rounds to buff up first. It wouldn't be a long fight.

net cost to party: 1000xp and some spells and hit points. Net xp reward: priceless.

While this SBT element is an issue, it can be simply rectified by seperating one's Title from one's True Name.

Gating in Lerresharn, King Pie-chucker of the 172nd layer of the Abyss will not get you that "thing" as there is no "gating power" in one's title.

Gating in Heth' Xiolmus - Gur'tha however very quickly gates through an unhappy Lerresharn as his true name has been used. The proviso for this to work however is to have the true names of these beasties a closely guarded secret. Those of extreme power have most likely risen to that station because no-one knows their true name and thus cannot exercise dominion over them.

As for the whole Deity or unique being argument. I would define a unique being as one that has the power of a deity but cannot for some reason claim that title. Alternatively, blending in previous definitions from above, a unique being is one who's true name can never be found or discovered. Where the choice however resides for these creatures is that if there title is used, they have the power to hear such a call - if you believe in the whole deity's hearing prayers philosophy - and may be moved to act upon it if they see fit.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Krafen]

Interesting point. One balance for that in my game is that almost everyone powerful gets that way by having allies. If the group does this to the wrong person, they'll probably be very sorry about the reaction it draws.

I've always seen this as a big part of the balancing factor for gate. Before the XP cost was added, it was pretty much the only balancing factor. If you gate in some greater demon and compel it to service, it's going to be very angry. The summoner is fairly safe while the spell lasts, but after that, a powerful evil entity has a grudge to settle. For this reason, the campaigns I've been in of a power level to involve gate generally it was creatures from the upper planes that were called. At least with them you have a chance with the argument "I apologize for bothering you, but I truly believe this threat was worthy of your attention". These were campaigns with good heroes, of course.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The spell breaks targets into two groups
1) Beings who are unique
2) Beings who are not.

I think that the wording on the spell is vague enough for the DM to be allowed to specify whether a given being qualifies.

Having said that, the choice should be made so as to provide the best game possible.

Gate is a very good spell, even if all it can do is allow transport to a specific part of a plane. Calling powerful creatures to fight for you is just as powerful, if not more so.

Calling specific named entities so you can order them to stand still while you let the environment kill them (or even just so your buddies can kill them) or whatever is NOT conducive to a fun game.

Having the enemy call you so he can do the above is also probably not conducive to a fun game.

Neither is necessary for the spell to be useful and powerful.

To that end, I'd declare that calling for a specific, named person or creature will plump them into the 'unique' being category, and thus not controlled nor required to enter the gate.

Calling for a nonspecific creature works just fine. You could call "a pit fiend". Even "a powerful pit fiend sorceror" will work.

However - the DM should be the final arbiter. If you specify enough terms that it's clear you're after one, specific creature, then the creature you are asking for is then unique.

As to what can get through? The gate remains open long enough for the creature to come through. The only description of the gate is in the transport component of the spell. Therefore I would use that description EVERY time the spell is used. So a targeted unique critter could indeed send minions through in his stead. In fact, if the caster wished, he could step through the portal himself.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Saev said:

To that end, I'd declare that calling for a specific, named person or creature will plump them into the 'unique' being category, and thus not controlled nor required to enter the gate.

So, again, it's more difficult to call the devil you know, rather than the devil you don't?

I don't think that makes much sense.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Saev said:



So, again, it's more difficult to call the devil you know, rather than the devil you don't?

I don't think that makes much sense.

I did have some pseudocode for this, but basically:

The spell goes through all the available creatures, allowing each one heavily modified (ie - save at +50 or something) multiple saves against it - one to find them, one to control them, one to force them through the portal, etc etc. Each creature is targeted by so weak an effect because the spell's power is split (effectively) so it can search the entire universe in under 6 seconds and attack each target.

The first creature to fail all the saves is controlled, gated to and forced through the portal. If NO creature fails all the saves, then the portal is merely opened to the creature.

If there is only ONE available creature, then the chance that it fails all the relevant saves is so vanishingly small that it falls under the D&D radar of 5%, and is therefore considered impossible.

If you make any specification which would allow more than one creature to fill it, then there are (because of the nature of an infinite universe), an infinite number of creatures which would fill the specification, therefore you get a random creature that you have never met before and probably never will again.

 

[Elephant]

I concur with the opinion that "generic being = no choice, specific being = choice." Many valid reasons have been presented, but here is one that has not and was, for me, a major factor. If we hold the unique being clause to be referring only to beings like deities, archdevils, and demon princes, then we run into the problem of the PCs being vulnerable to being gated into certain doom. Characters capable of casting the spell are certain to have made enemies of similar capacity, so either strange reasons as to why their foes would not do this must be constructed or the spell must not work in that way.

People, please! There is a DIFFERENCE between a UNIQUE being and a SPECIFIC being! Everyone saying, "If you call a demon by name, he gets a choice" don't seem to understand the flavor of the spell or the distinction made in the spell text.

I would allow a choice only if the target is truly one-of-a-kind. A half-dragon template, a few levels of Fighter, a name...those are not things that make a being unique. Deities, demon princes, and the like are the ones who can blow off this spell. Not every Tom, Dick, and Harry common demon with a name (because every demon DOES have a name, after all) gets to take advantage of the choice clause in the spell.

The way most people are posting in this thread, the spell becomes worthless for the non-hack'n'slash combat uses.