What's really at stake in the Edition Wars

[billd91]

Whatever, man. As far as I'm concerned the weather is totally blarfnarg.

Blarfnarg, eh? What exactly do you mean by that? I thought the weather was nice because it was sunny without being too bright and hit about 40 degrees.

 

[Lanefan]

Let me be very specific then, because I didn't mean to ask about current beliefs. Do you think the edition wars, right now, convince anyone to switch from 3e to 4e, or from 4e to 3e?

Switch outright? Not at all sure.

And keep in mind that for some of us the edition war goes far beyond the trivialities of 3e vs. 4e.

But do the wars provide avenues for DMs of all systems to find ideas to port from one system to the other? Absolutely.

Do you think, right now, they are convincing WOTC to change anything?

Let's hope so, if only in terms of realizing they serve their market better to support editions other than that which they are currently printing.

Convincing? Only time will tell...10 (?) years from now when they announce the pending release of 5Ed.

You're being overly optimistic, methinks, if you think they'll wait 10 years to release 5e. If they wait even 5 years from now I'll be astonished.

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

Blarfnarg, eh? What exactly do you mean by that? I thought the weather was nice because it was sunny without being too bright and hit about 40 degrees.

40 degrees *is* blarfnarg! At that temperature, it's too hot to roll dice...

Lan-"or are you talking in Fahrenheit"-efan

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"Shorthand with negative connotation". Exactly how is this different from trolling? When you use a vague term that you KNOW is negative, but does not actually state what you are being negative about, how is that different from trolling?

I don't know about you, but to me, "trolling" is posting something deliberately provocative in order to have a heated discussion in a thread.

By using a term like "videogamey" to describe a P&P RPG, I, at least, am trying to let the readers know that there are elements of that game that I dislike, that it is related to electronic gaming, and that I'm not going any further unless someone asks me directly.

Which, in certain circumstances, may constitute trolling itself.

And, as I mentioned in the other thread, what does it mean if I agree with you? If you say X is videogamey and I say, "Yup, you're right", what have we actually said? How could you possibly know that I'm interpreting your point correctly? I could be agreeing to something completely different than your meaning and, unless you start asking me what I'm agreeing with, you'd never know.

Really, most of the time, the real reasons why someone considers a P&P videogame simply don't matter. Its not going to decide anything.

The only thing gained by detailing why I or someone else might critique a P&P as "videogamey" is a rhetorical lynchpin for someone who likes the game to assert a counterargument.

IOW, you're trying to refute an opinion with counter-opinion. Which resolves nothing and only ticks people off, because you're telling them their opinion is wrong because you don't perceive or react to the exact same thing the same way they did. This could be trolling (as I mentioned above).

Instead of using "shorthand with negative connotation", why not just speak plainly?

If for no other reason, to avoid posting the same long-winded paragraphs of complaints in detail that so many will have read before, which will result in heated discussions.

IOW, its a time-saver...as long as you just accept that the person has a particular objection that you really don't need the details of.

I mean, I've used the term before, always, as I've pointed out, to talk about how 4Ed reminds me of arcade combat games. Not MMORPGs, because I don't play them at all.

But I'm the minority.

But others use the term to refer to MMORPG game mechanics, and still others refer to the closed structure of the games themselves, and so forth.

I mean...we all use placeholder words like this, especially in certain professions. How big would a given law book be if every time I wanted to refer to the case of Brown v Board of Education I actually reprinted the entire text?

Our game books have glossaries to avoid page bloat. We don't reprint the entire definition of Natural Weapon every time we use the term in the books, do we?

Just place "videogamey" in your mental glossary as a term having at least 3 definitions and move forward.

It will save a LOT of time.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

What people discussed 10 years ago, given 4e is a new edition, isn't very relevant. There are new aspects of the game worth discussing. Frankly, 4e does have elements that I find videogamey but you wouldn't know what they were if you shut your communication off before I elaborated on them.

On the other hand, and I'm just going out on a limb here, you could have saved a bunch of time by elaborating them in the first place instead of playing the "Please ask me about what I meant" game.

Like:

"*sigh*"

"What?"

"Oh nothing..."

"What is it, something is bothering you..."

"No...it's....nothing."

"Tell me what's wrong..."

"Well, this person I met at the mall today called me a name..."

"Ok, why didn't you just say that in the first place instead of saying *sigh* I don't know what *sigh* means."

I understand that people do it all the time, but that doesn't make it right. Communicating would be so much easier if people said what they meant instead of forcing other people to drag it out of them. And at message board speeds that might cut DAYS off a conversation.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I don't know about you, but to me, "trolling" is posting something deliberately provocative in order to have a heated discussion in a thread.

That's correct. And the term "videogamey" is deliberately provocative. It says "I don't like this thing and I'm not going to tell you why." It's connotation at this point is "Entertainment for stupid people". No one uses the term videogamey to refer to it in a good light. And almost every argument that says "X is videogamey" amounts to "RPGs are for smart people, video games are for dumb people. This reminds me of a game for dumb people."

So when you make a post that says "X is videogamey", it reads the same to me as if you had posted "Anyone who plays X is stupid."

I can understand a post that says "I like to have more options than are offered in X" or "I prefer a different sort of flavor in my games" or "I like more lethal games" And I can understand, difference of opinion and all that.

The only thing gained by detailing why I or someone else might critique a P&P as "videogamey" is a rhetorical lynchpin for someone who likes the game to assert a counterargument.

If for no other reason, to avoid posting the same long-winded paragraphs of complaints in detail that so many will have read before, which will result in heated discussions.

So you are saying that you are using "videogamey" because it is not concrete enough to form a counter argument against? And therefore, by using the term you seek to create less arguments?

Because I haven't seen a single thread where the term "videogamey" was used WITHOUT creating an argument. And one that is more heated and less rational than the ones where the term wasn't used.

I mean...we all use placeholder words like this, especially in certain professions. How big would a given law book be if every time I wanted to refer to the case of Brown v Board of Education I actually reprinted the entire text?

But once again, reference to that case are clear. We know what happened in that case, we can reference it. That's the reason we use placeholders.

Videogamey doesn't tell me anything other than "related to video games" and video games being such a broad category, it's close to useless. You might as well say "travelly", "sportsy", "televisiony", "moviey" or so on. And at least none of those terms currently carry a negative connotation to go with them. They'll be just as meaningless, but at least people will just be confused when you use them instead of angry and confused.

Just place "videogamey" in your mental glossary as a term having at least 3 definitions and move forward.

Too late. I have it in my mental glossary as being "A game with limited choices so that stupid people or those with short attention spans can understand it". Since it's been defined that way for me by 20 or 30 other people before.

 

[Hairfoot]

And the term "videogamey" is deliberately provocative. It say "I don't like this thing and I'm not going to tell you why." It's connotation at this point is "Entertainment for stupid people". No one uses the term videogamey to refer to it in a good light. And almost every argument that says "X is videogamey" amounts to "RPGs are for smart people, video games are for dumb people. This reminds me of a game for dumb people."

I don't think it's that insidious. You'd have a hard time finding a roleplaying gamer in 2010 who doesn't play videogames of some sort, so it's unlikely that "videogamey" is simply a euphemism for "dumb" or "stupid".

Most often, it's employed as shorthand for "the design of this game makes it more shallow and constraining than I believe roleplaying games should be, and therefore is less fun than it could be, because a key reason I play RPGs is to get something video games can't provide."

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I don't think it's that insidious. You'd have a hard time finding a roleplaying gamer in 2010 who doesn't play videogames of some sort, so it's unlikely that "videogamey" is simply a euphemism for "dumb" or "stupid".

Most often, it's employed as shorthand for "the design of this game makes it more shallow and constraining than I believe roleplaying games should be, and therefore is less fun than it could be, because a key reason I play RPGs is to get something video games can't provide."

You'd be surprised. Originally I had no bad feelings towards the term. I hadn't heard it used before 4e came out. And then there were suddenly 30 threads a days saying "4e sucks, it's too videogamey".

And in each one of those threads, we had to ask "What do you mean, videogamey? What does that even mean?" and the answers were always different, so we'd keep having to ask again the next time. But there was a general theme in the definitions.

Either the poster didn't play video games at all(which surprised me at how often posters who were calling things videogamey said that) because they thought video games were stupid or they were directly comparing 4e to video games they thought were for stupid people and pretty much saying so. Often the answer was "They remind me of MMORPGs. Those games are destroying the world by making people think LESS when we want them to think MORE. Why would WOTC make the game STUPIDER? I mean, the reason WoW is popular is because it caters to the lowest common denominator. We should be encouraging to move beyond that, not dropping to their level."

In fact, if I was taking a poll, that would be the answer(worded in various different ways) that came up the most often.

 

[pemerton]

This thread is starting to remind me of what was, for me, one of the most bizarre aspects of the edition wars threads.

Now maybe it's just because I don't play any video or computer games, and never have, but the resemblances of 4e mechanics to WoW-ish mechanics (as I understand them) seem pretty superficial. Whereas the resemlbance of 4e mechanics to indie RPG mechanics strikes me as obvious and deliberate. What surprises me about the edition wars, then, is that we get all these debates about whether or not 4e is videogamey, but comparatively little coherent discussion of the sorts of play (other than the tactical miniatures wargame stuff) that an indie-inspired edition of D&D might support.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's correct. And the term "videogamey" is deliberately provocative. It say "I don't like this thing and I'm not going to tell you why." It's connotation at this point is "Entertainment for stupid people". No one uses the term videogamey to refer to it in a good light. And almost every argument that says "X is videogamey" amounts to "RPGs are for smart people, video games are for dumb people. This reminds me of a game for dumb people."

So when you make a post that says "X is videogamey", it reads the same to me as if you had posted "Anyone who plays X is stupid."

That's your problem. To me, "videogamey" may be broad, but its not so vague as all that.

It says "I don't like this thing because elements of it reminds me of videogames." - thats no more vague than "rules heavy."

So you are saying that you are using "videogamey" because it is not concrete enough to form a counter argument against? And therefore, by using the term you seek to create less arguments?

I'm saying that 1) the term has been thrown around enough that we've seen several definitions of it pop up so we all have a general idea of what it may mean, AND 2) that any counterargument is doomed to fail because you're not going to convince anyone that their perception, their interface with the game, is anything but how they perceive it.

SO specificity of which definition of "videogamey" a poster is using is immaterial.

But once again, reference to that case are clear.
We know what happened in that case, we can reference it.

Only because we (as a society) have had countless discussions & editorials that went something like "In Brown v Board of Education, the defendants claimed...blah, blah, blah, ...separate but equal is illegal...blah blah, etc." where it has all been spelled out to great and lengthy detail.

However, unless you're a lawyer, you probably don't know the details, how many appeals were involved, etc....because that stuff doesn't matter 99.99% of the time.

Videogamey doesn't tell me anything other than "related to video games" and video games being such a broad category, it's close to useless.

"Related to video games" is sufficient understanding. How is additional detail helping you successfully argue that something that reminds me of video games shouldn't?

You mentioned that you've seen threads where greater specificity has been used, and that those threads were less heated. GREAT!!!

However, did anyone's opinion change? Did greater specificity actually enable you to convince someone that their perception was flawed?

I'm betting it hasn't so far. And if it hasn't, the greater specificity was useless in the end-goals of the debate.

You might as well say "travelly", "sportsy", "televisiony", "moviey" or so on. And at least none of those terms currently carry a negative connotation to go with them. They'll be just as meaningless, but at least people will just be confused when you use them instead of angry and confused.

I use the term "videogamey" precisely to imply a negative connotation by the context in which I use it, which, to date, has always been something like "I don't like those videogamey healing surges."

And I'm pretty sure that others using the term have not intended a positive connotation either- its always being used as a reason why they don't play 4Ed. And its always understood to be an attack on the game.

Too late. I have it in my mental glossary as being "A game with limited choices so that stupid people or those with short attention spans can understand it". Since it's been defined that way for me by 20 or 30 other people before.

Then that's your problem- the OED has had to refine its definitions of countless words. Rest assured that when the first appearances in the English language of "run" had nothing to do with computer programs, "cool" had nothing to do with popular appeal, and "chips" referred to small bits of wood and stone, not computer parts or french fries. And so forth.