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D&D 5E What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" attitude?

Derren

Hero
Wait, what? Who's insisting anything?

You are.

Look at what you are demanding. You want to play a superhero "soon". And if you are not able to do that then the system is broken as you level to slow. Thus the system has to be changed so that everyone reaches superhero level fast because of your demands.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
Hussar, it's rather pointless going around in circles with you over this.

[MENTION=4937]I mean, Christopher Nolan manages to tell that entire story in two hours. He goes from boy Bruce Wayne to Batman in a bit over two hours.

No he doesn't. After watching Batman begins, we don't have even a remote sense about how he begins, and much of the story we know about from the comics about Batman's past is left untold. We get this in media res scene where Batman is suddenly in Tibet, and then we get a few tidbits that show the highlights of his relationship with 'The League of Shadows'. At one point Nolan resorts to doing a flashback within a flashback to try to tell the audience what is going on. But despite that, we get no deep involvement with Talia at all (or if IRC no even mention) or any real idea of the scope of Bruce's adventures in this period. The Ressurection Pit isn't introduced. All of that will need flashbacks in further movies (that wouldn't be forthcoming) if we were ever to do other stories. Nolan only tells the minimal part of Batman's past necessary to tell the one abbreviated and highly unsatisfying plot hole filled story he's going to be telling about Ra's Al Ghul's attack on Gotham, and his very abbreviated version of how Batman becomes the Dark Knight. Honestly, if you are going to talk about terseness in story telling, the average episode of Batman the Animated Series packed in more story in to 24 minutes and better told than Batman Begins.

The idea that it should take that long to tell a story is, to me, utterly ridiculous. There's no way a story should take that long to tell.

Don't even start. The fact that you compared an RPG to a movie means you have no idea how the two mediums work. Movies can tell their stories out of sequence. That would be really hard to do in an RPG. Movies can use all sorts of railroading techniques that players would probably never put up with, because the characters in a movie don't have free will and are, for these purposes, all merely NPCs. Do you want to watch the GM tell a story or do you actually want to play it out? If you want to game out a two hour back story for your 10th level character, you can certainly do that. You have a couple of quick acts, and boom, give him the player enough XP to be 10th level. Skip a bunch of years at time, "Three years pass while you learn from Master Wu, then one day...", and then you are up to the present and can start your real story in earnest. Or you could just put that all in a paragraph of the PC's backstory, and get on with your real story without the fuss. Unlike a movie, it's not like you need to spend time defining to the audience who the protagonist is; in an RPG, hopeful the player has some notion of that already.

At one I started to write a story hour for my current campaign. It didn't take me that long to quit. I realized at the current pace I was going (not even halfway through the first session, even leaving things out), it would take me hundreds of pages to catch up to the 'present' of the campaign. By now, it would be a couple of long novels worth of story, even despite being able to quickly summarize events. Most story hours I've seen of homebrews involve similarly heroic efforts to try to relate the events of the game. It's just too much work.

You aren't even thinking about why you find the character of Batman so fascinating, and yet here you are trying to tell me that you can build up that sort of hold on the imagination of people in 2 hours? Do you think that 'Batman Begins' would have even worked as a movie at all if people didn't have some connection with the character before the movie?

UPDATE: And one more thing before I depart from this topic. People can watch mindless entertainment like 'Batman Begins' and completely ignore all the freaking plot holes and come out saying how awesome it is, because people who are watching things like 'Batman Begins' are people not used to thinking while they receive their entertainment, a quality they generally don't share with my players.
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
UPDATE: And one more thing before I depart from this topic. People can watch mindless entertainment like 'Batman Begins' and completely ignore all the freaking plot holes and come out saying how awesome it is, because people who are watching things like 'Batman Begins' are people not used to thinking while they receive their entertainment, a quality they generally don't share with my players.

I'm no fan of Hussar's line of argument in this thread, but that update is a pretty snide cheap shot at a broad group of movie fans.
 


Hussar

Legend
It's about 13 equal-EL encounters per level in 3.5.

My last D&D campaign had a really weird leveling rate.

The first few levels went by about 1 level per adventure or so or in terms of session count, about 1 level per two/three sessions.

Once the party got to about 4th they headed to a different area and embarked in a lot of overland travel and fiddly exploration of towns and environments. Leveling slowed down to about 1 level per four sessions and stayed there until the party hit about 10th level or so. Then leveling pretty much stopped. The party took like 10 sessions to hit 11 and another 10 to hit 12. A few bad breaks and nasty situations costing various PCs level loss from Raise Dead was part of it. Another part was how long combats were becoming. Getting to 13 was another 6-8 sessions.

Then leveling sped back up. PCs started to level every other session again until the campaign ended with characters between 19 and 20th level.

The campaign ran for about 5 years. At least a year was spent between 10-12 level. At no point did I change the rate of award.

So Nagol, you averaged about five sessions per level overall. Which is exactly the same as me. Your slowest period was ten sessions per level but most levels were much faster.

I would be perfectly content I'm this game.
 

Hussar

Legend
Depends on what else you're doing. If the role playing is good and fun and everybody's reasonably on board and participating, this is fine.

Four hours of play per xp awarding event. What are you doing that could possibly take that long? People endlessly complain about 4e's combat grind but it's ok to spend about three hours per session on stuff that isn't a challenge to the pcs?
 

Celebrim

Legend
I'm no fan of Hussar's line of argument in this thread, but that update is a pretty snide cheap shot at a broad group of movie fans.

Ok, so if you would prefer a more tactful way of saying the same thing, the willful suspension of disbelief required of your average 'summer blockbuster' or action movie is much higher than in your average RPG session. Movie makers know that most viewers will willfully turn off their brain, particularly when their senses are being stimulated in a visceral way. Most audience members understand that their own enjoyment would suffer if they thought about it, so they don't. They actually prefer to not think about what they are viewing.

None of that is however true of an RPG.

In truth, I have a reputation of being someone who you don't watch a movie with, because afterwards I'll ruin it for you by pointing out all the inconsistencies because my brain just won't relax and shut off. Quite often my own wife will say, "Don't talk. If you open your mouth, you'll point out how stupid something was and then I'll start hating what I just enjoyed." So if you don't think about your movies, it's you that are engaging the movie 'right', not me. Just because I'm correctly assessing that people are consuming their deliberately mindless entertainment passively, doesn't mean that they are having 'badwrongfun' in doing so.
 

pemerton

Legend
Casablanca is premised on a plot-hole (namely, that letters of transit signed by General De Gaulle would have irrevocable legal standing in Vichy France). Nevertheless it remains one of the greatest movies of all time.

I am sure my games contain plot holes: the amount of content that gets generated per session is more than I or the players can remember, and much of it doesn't get written down because we're in the process of playing the game.

Plot consistency is not, for me at least, the sole (or even the principal) measure of the quality of a work of fiction.

Back on topic: if someone's main reason for playing is a particular character concept, and the game (due to mechanical features) delays acquisition of the concept, then I agree with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] and [MENTION=63508]Minigiant[/MENTION] that it's natural that players will want to move quickly through the prior parts of the game.

I'm personally not sure that "character concept" - which is often conceived as if it was independent of ingame relationships and motivations for the PC - should be such a big focus of play, but that's a consequence of bigger issues like campaign and adventure design (eg in an adventure path, what does the player have control over other than character concept?).
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Honestly, I am deeply suspicious of "character concept" and "campaign concept" as central conceits of play. I think it's problematic to start a group centered activity from what amounts to an uncompromising position. I find starting from a concrete ideal of what play should be like leads to (what is for me) dysfunctional play where everyone is centered on their own ideal outcomes rather than concerned with making sure play suits the wants of the entire group. This is why I prefer to approach the start of any game (initial setup and character creation) as a group activity. Might just be my hipster indie game sensibilities poking through.
 

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