Which CRPG has the best STORY? (Forked from: Do you not play WoW?)

[jdrakeh]

Technically, they aren't RPGs, but I think that Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers, Phantasmagoria, and The Dagger of Amon Ra all have good stories that make for engaging play (they're easily my most favorite PCs games ever).

For console RPGS (and, yes, these are RPGs), the Shining Force and Shining Force II are both great fun. Both games have a heavy emphasis on team-building and world exploration, as well as fairly detailed world histories. The stories in each are meaningful and engaging.

I actually started to write an unofficial SFII world guide for D&D 3x a couple of years back (I nearly finished it, too, but then my HDD went out suddenly and that pretty much killed the project. Nearly 20k words down the drain.)

 

[Teemu]

Yeah, Torment probably has the best story in a CRPG that I've played.

However, the best story and atmosphere and the like in any computer game must've been in Grim Fandango. It's been a decade since its release but thinking about it still sends shivers down my spine.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Anyone got any spoilers for Torment/BG 2?

 

[Merlin's Shadow]

Anyone got any spoilers for Torment/BG 2?

Torment spoilers from the Wikipedia article:
[sblock]Plot

The game begins with the protagonist, known only as The Nameless One, waking up with total amnesia. He soon finds out that he is immortal; if he is killed, he will simply reawaken in the same body. He sets out on a quest to regain his lost memories, and discover why he is immortal. As the game progresses, he slowly remembers events from his many previous lives. He discovers much about the personalities of his previous incarnations, and the great influence they have had in the worlds and people that surround him.
After traveling through many Planescape oddities and wonders, such as a pregnant alleyway, two of the Lady of Pain's Mazes, Avernus (the first layer of Baator), and Carceri (the prison plane of thieves and liars), he finally discovers why he is immortal. His original incarnation had committed a grave evil and believed that more than one lifetime was needed to atone. So, he sought out the powerful night hag, Ravel Puzzlewell, and asked her to make him immortal. Ravel granted him immortality, but made a mistake: his death and resurrection would cause the loss of all his memories. His mortality now exists as a separate entity in the Fortress of Regrets, from where it attempts to prevent The Nameless One's reincarnations to find the truth.

Subplots
Most of the game content resides on text based subplots. They help the player understand the setting and gain insight into the backgrounds of the characters.
The background of "Morte" is a good example of such a subplot. Morte is a floating skull that accompanies The Nameless One from the beginning of the game. Several times in the game, it is hinted that Morte is hiding something about his origins. The protagonist might even find a message of a previous incarnation urging caution against the skull. If the player pays attention to these hints, he might use them to press Morte, and find out that his companion used to be attached to the Pillar of Skulls in Avernus, in punishment for having told a lie that caused someone's death. Telling this to someone seems to be a relief to Morte.
The player can also help quite a few victims of the oddities of the planes. There is, for example, a woman who has been lost since her childhood, because she could not find a portal home. In her search, she has gone through many portals, only to arrive in inhospitable and dangerous locations. She not only lost hope of returning home, but also got so afraid of portals that she decided never to leave a certain square of Sigil, in fear of going through one accidentally. If the player stops to listen to her, he´ll be able help her find her way home.

Themes

The key philosophical theme of the work is presented as a question several times: "what can change the nature of a man?". This question considers the possibility (or impossibility) of changing fate; many characters in Torment are fighting against their natures, or against what seems to be an inevitable fate. One example is Nordom, who, despite being a modron (a hive-minded species) is developing a personality of his own.
Selfishness is also a very present theme. The Nameless One has, in previous incarnations, been so committed to understanding his condition that he has been willing to sacrifice everything and everyone on that quest. Many consequences of this can be discovered through the game.
One idea that presents itself many times during the game is consensus reality—if enough people believe in something, then it is real, and begins to exist. For example, when people ask The Nameless One his name, one of the choices of response is to lie that it is "Adahn". If the player tells enough people that this is his name, a man named Adahn will appear in a certain location, claiming to be an old friend, even though he never existed before. Another example is a recovered memory of a past event in which the Nameless One apparently debates a man out of existence. Also, the Githzerai make their home in Limbo, the plane of chaos, using collective belief to shape their cities.
Torment shares many themes with its setting, Planescape.[/sblock]

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Other good plot games:
-Legend of Dragoon: It has a lot of stereotypical characters and common plot twists, but the basic story is still lengthy and rich. So much happens on the first disc (of 4) that it felt like its own game. Maybe I was blind or too young when I played it to know my plot twists, but the revelations at the end of disc 3 really surprised me. Not just the identity of the enemy that had been trumpeted around like a potential final boss, but how the main character transitioned from anger and the seeking of revenge to forgiveness and understanding.
-Super Mario RPG: I just like how they lampooned the plot of all the previous Mario games by "resolving" it in the first several minutes, only to uncover the real plot. That and how the game managed to be so incredibly funny without taking away from the story or the urgency of stopping the Smithy Gang. Mallow is one of the most memorable characters from any game I've ever played.

On the jRPG - and thus, console - side, I agree fully with the nomination of Suikoden. 1 is great, 2 is absolutely fantastic - or awesome, if you want - and 3 is good. Four is...don't play four. It's not bad, it just doesn't match up with the greatness of the other Suikodens. Five jumps back up to great.

I dislike FF7. Sorry. 8 is worse. I did enjoy nine though! Ten...that's FF8 level. Sorry again.

Buuuuuuut...Final Fantasy Tactics is great stuff. It's got my recommendation.

Heh, yeah 4 is pretty bad compared to the other Sukodens. It's still an ok game, just...play the others first if you can. And try to find humor in the insanely high random encounter rate, lest you just get angry and quit. Plot-wise, it was definitely the wak link of the series.

As for FF...I should have mentioned 3/6, 7, and Tactics are the only ones I've fully played through. I'm sure there are other FF titles with great plots (except 10 and 10-2, never playing those). As for saying 7 had a good plot, well...it did. I am captain of the "FF 7 is over rated" team, and didn't even think the Aeris "scene" (for those few who it would be a spoiler for) was staged well/convincingly, nevermind not least bit tragic. But, it did have an interested, troubled main character, and the backstories for many of the others were pretty deep as well. There are still dozens of better CRPGs to play than FF7, of course.

Finally, no love for Balder's Gate?

I love Baldur's Gate, and it has an amazing cast of characters. It's definitely my favorite computer RPG, particularly 2. The main issue I had with it (BG 2) for plot was the main villain. Yeah, he was a great villain and I wanted to kick his teeth down his throat. But his motivation for doing everything...just seemed bland to me.

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

Go for the eyes, Boo, go for the eyes! Rrrar! *squeek*

Great thread! Here are some of my opinions ...

*****PC GAMES*****

Baldur's Gate wins. Part 2 is a direct continuation of the story in Part 1, btw. It is BG2, though, that has such a mindbending story arc. Oh, and I can't wait for Dragon Age to come out (the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate). My hopes are riding high ...

(THIS IS A SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE: PLAY FALLOUT 3 RIGHT AWAY)

All 3 Fallout games are wonderful all around. I enjoy Fallout 3 the most for the gameplay and the worldbuilding/realism more than the story, which is still engaging.* It has one minor flaw that I can't bring up w/o spoiling anything. I would advise anyone who plays it to keep a lot of save files (that is to say, don't just re-write over the same save file).

Oblivion is great for the same sandboxy reasons, plus it has a great story. I LOVED playing through Oblivion. It is by far my favorite 3D RPG experience ... maybe my favorite computer RPG experience overall. I hear its expansions are even better than the original (similar to NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer outshining NWN2), and I fully intend to play them at some point. I think it was Shivering Isles that got all the attention. One problem: the skill system is a bit silly. Thank goodness Fallout 3 fixed all that nonsense.

Icewind Dale 1 and 2 was not the greatest in terms of story, but it scratched the itch after I finished BG. Good games, but not great.

Planescape scratched a similar itch and is pretty good from what I played of it. Unfortunately I got sidetracked after about 30 hours and forgot to back up my saves when I formatted my drive. I should probably attempt it again based on all these reccomendations.

Arcanum is another game that I lost interest in about half way through. Meh. I'll investigate the fanfixes and give it another shot one day ...

I am another guy fully impressed with the writers at BioWare. I respectfully disagree with ProfessorCirno's criticisms of Bioware. These guys are master storytellers, and they're doing the most intersting work I've seen in the treatment of ethics and how they shape the game. Their characters are memorable and complex; they are a far cry from flat, one-dimensional portrayals. I would encourage anyone who likes a good story to play KOTOR 1 and Mass Effect.

The Deus Ex series also deals with ethical choices in a great way. If you haven't played the first Deus Ex game on PC, you really owe it to yourself to check it out one day. Especially recommended if you consider yourself Shadowrun, Dark Matter, or Delta Green fan.

System Shock, System Shock 2, and Bioshock are all amazing games! Highly recommended.

*****SNES GAMES*****

To be honest, FF2/4 has a much more moving story than FF3/6 or FF7, but the gameplay is weakest in FF2. Really good story. It's loaded with heroic sacrifice in the face of crushing odds; just the sort of stuff that brings me to tears. The writers brazenly killed off characters left and right. Of course, the graphics are also really primitive in FF2, even by SNES standards. The Nintendo DS did a nice graphical upgrade of FF2/4, though. FF3/6 and FF7 have great stories too, and more engaging gameplay IMO.

Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana are both wonderful. Really, they are beautiful games. Link to the Past is another masterpiece, although many like to say that this isn't an RPG. Even if it's not, it is a perfect game with a good story and compelling gameplay. The best in the series, IMO. I also agree about the original Harvest Moon. It was lovely and poetic.

(For those with action platformer love in their heart, try the Japan only releases of Magical Pop'n and DoReMi Fantasy)

*****PSX GAMES*****

Suikoden 1 and 2, Xenogears (can't believe no one has mentioned Xenogears yet), and let's not forget the amazing Alundra. Alundra is kind of a mix between a mature RPG (grittier in theme) and an action puzzler in the tradition of the best Zelda games. It is the spiritual successor to Sega's Landstalker duology. I already discussed FF7 above.

Of course, if you're into medieval fantasy-themed games that play like Castlevania, I'd recommend the Japan only released action platformer called The Adventures of Little Ralph (Chippoke Ralph No Daibouken). It is so much danged FUN I can hardly contain myself! Keep in mind that the hard mode setting has additional ending stages that reveal the whole story. I also agree that FF9 is a gift from the gods.

*****PS2 GAMES*****
FF12 is awesome as well. Really great game. I haven't played FF10 but I've heard good things. DragonQuest VIII is another all around great game, but a bit cartoonish and with some silly monsters. I like it better than the earlier DragonQuest or Dragon Warrior games, which resemble FF1 a little too closely for me to enjoy. Wild Arms series is decent. Shadow of Collosus, ICO, God of War 1 and 2 are evocative masterpieces.

Ar Tonelico 1 and 2 (to be released in Jan) make for a naughty and sexy romp, but still they still manage to develop the characters' emotions in an impressive way; they feature nice storylines too. Persona 3 and 4 are supposed to be pretty great. Any comments on those two (or any of the Digital Devil Saga)?

Oh, and how did I almost forget the gorgeous storybook-like Odin Sphere? Best olde schoole feeling game on the console and dripping with gorgeousity and smarts. Holy crapola is Odin Sphere good. Oh, and another underrated masterpiece is Okami. This has now released across a few platforms, I believe ...

*****NINTENDO DS*****

I hear that Etrian Odyssey 1 and 2 and Golden Sun 1 and 2 are all good, but I have yet to play any of these. Anyone enjoy them? The World Ends With You is another Square title that is reputed to be great.

A great source for reviews is the metareview site: Game Rankings - Video Game Reviews, Release Dates, Cheat Codes

*see discussion below

 

[RichGreen]

Hi,

I'd go for Baldur's Gate II Shadows of Amn and FF7. I haven't played FF6 or Planescape:Torment and I really didn't like Morrowind - the world was too brown. Oblivion was really cool at first but I got bored after 50+ hours playing it.

I got Fallout 3 and Fable II for Christmas and have high hopes for both.

Cheers


Richard

 

[resistor]

All 3 Fallout games are wonderful all around. I enjoy Fallout 3 the most for the gameplay and the worldbuilding/realism more than the story, which is still astonishingly good. It has one minor flaw that I can't bring up w/o spoiling anything. I would advise anyone who plays it to keep a lot of save files (that is to say, don't just re-write over the same save file).

Really? I found the story of Fallout 3... rather lacking. The world is big and well built, but there's a grand total of ~17 quests in that entire giant world. And, as the OP quoted, wandering around looking for uber-loot doesn't keep me interested for long.

To compound it, I didn't think what storyline there was, was that great. To make it concrete, at the dramatic choice at the end, I found that I didn't really give a damn, because I didn't care about the other character involved.

Spoiler

What the plotline really needed to make the final choice meaningful was a chance for Sarah Lyons to be a romantic interest, or at least some reason for me to care about her at all.

I saw it well summarized by a poster on Ars Technica: FO3 is broad, but not deep. There's a huge world, but not actually a lot of story. And what story there is, is fairly shallow. One sequence of plotline quests, and a handful of one-off sidequests. As another example, it really bothered me that I went on this huge quest for Lucy West, and after it's done she doesn't act any different than before I did it. Way too static.

All of this criticism aside, I did enjoy the game, but I wouldn't classify it in my list of best CRPGs. Somewhere in the "enjoyable for a while, but wouldn't play again" range.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The Witcher isn't bad, either, I think, especially since you get to pick your side during the story-line and this appears to have a meaningful influence. (Well, I have to run it again sometimes.)

For example, I liked that you gained a certain respect and maybe even friendship with a few characters, and due to your decisions you might later find yourself fighting against him.

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

To compound it, I didn't think what storyline there was, was that great. To make it concrete, at the dramatic choice at the end, I found that I didn't really give a damn, because I didn't care about the other character involved.

Fair enough. I grant that "astonishingly good" may have been straying toward hyperbole in regarding the story, but I do believe it to be an astonishingly good game. That's why I was saying that I enjoy the world more than the story. I should have changed the word "astonishing" to "engaging." Oh, I just did.

I admit I have not completed the main quest yet; I am only about 30 hours in and have been in post apocalyptic heaven thus far. I was warned/spoiled by some friends about flaw near the end you allude to. Hence, I've spent a bunch of time pursuing as many side quests a possible and just exploring the expansive world, which is gratifying in and of itself. It doesn't hurt that I visit family in DC every year, so it is a real kick to see my familiar capital turned into a beautiful PA wasteland.

I also noticed the Lucy West thing, but I was impressed how they covered continuity in countless other instances

Spoiler

(3 Dog's replacement, rescued adoptees in the right places and displaying the appropriate gratitude, etc).

As huge as this game is, I can personally forgive the designers overlooking one character's lack of gratitude. She does seem happy to see me on occasion, though.

Let's face it, the much vaunted Fallout 2 game was a lot worse in that regard. Continuity issues were so bad and buggy that we called it the "Fallout Disease."

Spoiler

After slaughtering every raider in the world, people in town would still complain and insist that "something would have to be done about these raiders."

Fallout 3 is much less buggy in dealing with continuity issues.