Whips & Improved Trip

[Nyarlathotep]

I have a player in one of my campaigns who asked me an interesting question that I had no answer to, so I thought I would come here and see what you all have to say.

The character is a Bard with the Improved Trip feat who has a magical whip that gives a +2 circumstance bonus on Trip attempts. Now this is just a regular whip so it deals subdual damage only.

The question is: If the PC starts his action 10' away from an enemy and uses Improved Trip with his whip (and, of course, succeeds on tripping his opponent) can he take a 5' move towards his prone opponent and make the free attack as specified by Improved Trip feat?

Thoughts?

Edit: If his opponent was in melee with someone else would he also take a -4 penalty on the ranged touch attack for "firing" into melee?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In 3.5, whips are not ranged weapons. Accordingly, they never suffer the -4 penalty for firing into melee.

That being said, he does not get to make a 5' step in between his trip attempt and the free attack granted by Improved Trip. You may take a 5' in between separate attacks in a full attack action, but not in between a normal attack and the attack granted by Cleave. Similarly, you may not take a 5' step in betweeen a normal attack and the attack granted by IT.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Ahhh... this is what I hate about the 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion

Same question, but this time the PC is adjacent to his foe and takes the AoO, can he take the free attack with the rapier?

Thanks!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Is he still tripping with the whip?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Is he still tripping with the whip?

Yep

 

[Hypersmurf]

If someone has a BAB of +6, a longsword in one hand, and a shortsword in the other, do you allow:

Attack with longsword (BAB +6), attack with shortsword (BAB +1), with no penalties?

Or does attacking with the shortsword necessarily require TWF penalties? Can the +1 iterative attack be used for the shortsword, or is it required that the shortsword utilise the off-hand attack from the Two-Weapon Fighting rules?

If you'd allow the shortsword to make the +1 iterative attack, then what about someone with BAB +11 and the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat? Can he make his main iterative attacks longsword +11, shortsword +6, shortsword +1 (with TWF penalties), then make three off-hand attacks with the shortsword?

-Hyp.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

If someone has a BAB of +6, a longsword in one hand, and a short sword in the other, do you allow:

Attack with longsword (BAB +6), attack with shortsword (BAB +1), with no penalties?

Or does attacking with the shortsword necessarily require TWF penalties? Can the +1 iterative attack be used for the shortsword, or is it required that the shortsword utilise the off-hand attack from the Two-Weapon Fighting rules?

If you'd allow the shortsword to make the +1 iterative attack, then what about someone with BAB +11 and the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat? Can he make his main iterative attacks longsword +11, shortsword +6, shortsword +1 (with TWF penalties), then make three off-hand attacks with the shortsword?

-Hyp.

Oops, my bad. I forgot to specify that TWF penalties would apply if the PC attempted this maneuver. But the question still stands. Assuming the player took the TWF penalties, could he attack an adjacent opponent with a whip (drawing an AoO) and then use his second weapon to take the free attack provided by Improved Trip?

 

[Nim]

I thought this one was straightforward, because I /thought/ that Improved Trip specfically said the attack was made with the same weapon. But I was mistaken: "...you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt."

Hypersmurf is right, of course, that you can't mix multiple weapons in a single iterative attack routine. And I'm pretty sure the INTENT was that the followup attack be made with the weapon that did the tripping. But let's see. A character with a BAB of +4 and Improved Trip is holding a whip in one hand and short sword in the other. He doesn't have TWF. However, he can still presumably attack with EITHER weapon...just not with both together. (Is there an explicit off-hand penalty if you're not actually doing anything with the primary hand?)

So. He makes a single attack with the whip, and trips the opponent. He now makes another attack, 'as if he hadn't used the attack for the trip attempt'. If he hadn't attacked with the whip, he could have chosen to attack with the sword instead. So by the letter, perhaps it's legal.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Assuming the player took the TWF penalties, could he attack an adjacent opponent with a whip (drawing an AoO) and then use his second weapon to take the free attack provided by Improved Trip?

That's why I'm asking if you'd allow the off-hand weapon to be used with a main iterative attack (or vice-versa).

Let's say you use an off-hand attack with the whip to trip. Your immediate free attack is as if you had not used the attack to trip... so your immediate free attack is also an off-hand attack. If someone couldn't use their off-hand attack from TWF to make an attack with their primary weapon, then they can't use their primary rapier with an attack that only exists as if they hadn't used an off-hand attack to trip.

Let's say you use a primary attack with the whip to trip, and the rapier is your off-hand weapon. If your answer to the longsword/shortsword example is that the shortsword can only be used for off-hand attacks, and not for main iterative attacks, then the rapier cannot be used to follow up with Improved Trip. If your answer is that both longsword and shortsword can be used for main iterative attacks in the same round, then the rapier can be used to follow up.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

(Is there an explicit off-hand penalty if you're not actually doing anything with the primary hand?)

Yup.

off hand
A character's weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a -4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character's Strength bonus may be added to damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand.

If you're right-handed, and you hit someone with a sword held in your left hand, you take a -4 and half Str to damage.

-Hyp.