Whirlwind Attack and Swarms

[Cabral]

Mobs are swarms of small to large creatures that consist of about 2 dozen creatures. ... I had some other version of swarms in my head when I made the post. I think it was a template (much like the mob template). Is there a 3.0 or d20 swarm template?

While I don't think a swarm of bats should be immune to physical damage (maybe minimum weapon damage, no str/enhancement bonuses) ... some of the other swarm do justify it... like a swarm of locusts, for example.

 

[Feldspar]

While I don't think a swarm of bats should be immune to physical damage

Yeah, you'd think that rats and bats would be equivalent ...

 

[comrade raoul]

I agree with this as being the RAW interpretation.

I don't agree with this statement. The "immune to weapon damage" aspect (for most swarms) seems to be about negating physical attacks period, combat feats therefore getting rendered useless seems to be just a byproduct ...

Personally, I'd let a player with Whirlwind attack get one attack for each square occupied by the swarm that's within reach. I think that remains in the spirit of the feat; a character with Whirlwind Attack should be able to deal with the scenario of being completely surrounded by a Swarm better (provided their attacks can actually hurt the swarm) than a character without that feat.

I'd agree with all of this.

 

[frankthedm]

You know you're still allowed to give the gist, right?

Anyway - my take would be to let whirlwind attack do regular damage. That's not even slightly backed up by the rules (unless you think that the swarm "immune to weapon damage" is negated by the "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.")

Personally, I think the rules for swarms are pretty vague, and they need to be cleaned up (putting the same rules in the MM entry for swarms AND the entry for the swarm subtype would be a good start).

The rules are not vauge at all, you just don't like them.

Gist of a mob---lots of smalll / medium / large critters of a single mindset become one Huge or bigger critter to represent/reinsert the danger of a horde of folks grabbing hold of you, pulling you into thie midst and tearing you to bits [yeah, they like grappleing IIRC].

1 creature, not one per square it occupies.
High HD
Lots of HP
50% extra damage suffered from area affect attacks.

The Negating whirlwind and cleave is when the 50 peasants rushing you subvert thier individuality & form mass consciousness becoming one high HD mob

 

[Feldspar]

Gist of a mob---lots of smalll / medium / large critters of a single mindset become one Huge or bigger critter to represent/reinsert the danger of a horde of folks grabbing hold of you, pulling you into thie midst and tearing you to bits [yeah, they like grappleing IIRC].

1 creature, not one per square it occupies.

Ah, but I can't Baleful Polymorph a swarm even though the spell targets "1 creature." There are some exceptions slash special cases for swarms with regards to treating them as a single creature; I think Whirlwind attack is something that should be special cased as well.

Imagine if you will two fighters who are exactly the same in everything (stats, hp's, equipment, etc) except feats. One (Castor) has Whirlwind attack while the other (Pollux) spent those feats on feats that won't help against a swarm/mob (Improved Trip perhaps).

One can imagine Pollux, with multiple attacks per round because of a high BAB perhaps, killing a couple of peasants per round. Stabbilty stab stab, there go three more. But eventually, there are just too many coming from all angles - the wave of humanity surges over him, pulls him to the ground and tears him apart.

But Castor is a veritable cyclone of steel, his blade flashing in every direction. The mob tries to get at him, tries to come from behind and the sides to bear him down - but its always his blade they find waiting for them. The ring of dead begins to build up around him ...

It just feels right to me that the Whirldwind attack guy can put that training to use against a swarm or mob, even if it is just one creature.

 

[glass]

Just crack open your copy of the DMG2, I ain't lime-quoting it since it is not OGC.

Unless you are going to include a properly filled in copy of the OGL in your post, whether or not it is OGC has no bearing. Fair use on the other hand applies whether it is OGC or not.

IANAL.


glass.

 

[frankthedm]

Ok, i admit it I am too lazy to find my copy of the DMG2* to lime quote from it. Happy? Plus i really don't agree with how nasty they made mobs. Even as a Cold Blooded Playa Killa DM, i think mobs are over the top.

*It is buried somewhere, either my car, my bedroom or the house my group plays at.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the problem is that whirlwind and great cleave are all about killing hoards of creatures. However, if you get comfortable with the mob rules you start using them more...so even when your fighting hoards of creature your still not getting to use your cool feats.

Now I agree with Frank, by RAW you can't. However, I personally think that's bogus and it should be house ruled.

 

[KarinsDad]

I didn't know there were Mob rules in the DMG2 (it being one of the books I haven't read cover to cover).

Thanks for letting me know.

I recently had a small army of Goblins come through a portal. When the PCs Fireballed the ones who made it through and then some of the PCs went back through the other way themselves, I gave the PCs that went through an Int roll to figure out that even if these were lowly 1st / 2nd level Goblins, 100+ of them would eventually drag the 10th level PCs down. So, the PCs went back through the Portal, formed a defensive line, and let the portal eventually collapse (the Goblins wisely chose to not send anymore through due to dozens of them being killed in the first wave and only a few escaping to tell the tale).

But, having Mob rules would be very cool and it would save a lot of hassle rolling dozens of rolls for peasant attackers.

 

[Cabral]

Oh yeah, the mob rules are great for ... well... mobs of low level creatures. Unfortunately, since it changes the group to 30 HD, it only works for low level creatures. (no mind flayer hordes ... sorry ...)

Hmmm ... wonder if you can make a mob of mobs? (Answer: No. But let me have my EGM moment, k? )