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Whirlwind Attack and Swarms
- Thread starter Cabral
- Start date
frankthedm
First Post
1 normal weapon hit unless the swarm or mob rules say otherwise. And don't forget those critters often take reduced damge from weapons a lot of the time.
These critters are there purposly to negate those feats so that masses of creatures are a danger to higher level PCs. I found enough use of Aid Another worked well enough in large groups.
These critters are there purposly to negate those feats so that masses of creatures are a danger to higher level PCs. I found enough use of Aid Another worked well enough in large groups.
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Actually, as I understood it, it was also to simplify combat so instead running with 30 monsters/NPCs, you run with one. Thus, I don't think it should negate those feats. However, RAW does negate them?
At the very least, I think I'll give a character with Great Cleave x2 damage versusSwarms/Mobs. Not sure about a character using whirlwhind attack ... at high levels, a x2 damage in exchange for your extra attacks isn't worth it. ... I'll put a thread in House Rules later 
Edit: reread swarm entry... It's not a template and it doesn't take double damage from AoEs ... I'm confused.
At the very least, I think I'll give a character with Great Cleave x2 damage versus
Edit: reread swarm entry... It's not a template and it doesn't take double damage from AoEs ... I'm confused.
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Infiniti2000
First Post
I'm not sure 'negate' is the correct word, but essentially yes. A swarm has a single pool of hit points and 'acts as a single creature'.Cabral said:
frankthedm
First Post
Swarm
Swarms are dense masses of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that would not be particularly dangerous in small groups, but can be terrible foes when gathered in sufficient numbers. For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. It makes saving throws as a single creature.
Many different creatures can mass as swarms; bat swarms, centipede swarms, hellwasp swarms, locust swarms, rat swarms, and spider swarms are described here. The swarm’s type varies with the nature of the component creature (most are animals or vermin), but all swarms have the swarm subtype.
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. A large swarm is completely shapeable, though it usually remains contiguous.
Combat
In order to attack, a single swarm moves into opponents’ spaces, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey, but remains a creature with a 10-foot space. Swarms never make attacks of opportunity, but they can provoke attacks of opportunity.
Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures.
Vulnerabilities Of Swarms
Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities, as follows:
A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit.
A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.
A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks.
Only rat swarms even take damage from weapons, and then only 1/2. http://d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm
Swarms are dense masses of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that would not be particularly dangerous in small groups, but can be terrible foes when gathered in sufficient numbers. For game purposes a swarm is defined as a single creature with a space of 10 feet—gigantic hordes are actually composed of dozens of swarms in close proximity. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. It makes saving throws as a single creature.
Many different creatures can mass as swarms; bat swarms, centipede swarms, hellwasp swarms, locust swarms, rat swarms, and spider swarms are described here. The swarm’s type varies with the nature of the component creature (most are animals or vermin), but all swarms have the swarm subtype.
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. A large swarm is completely shapeable, though it usually remains contiguous.
Combat
In order to attack, a single swarm moves into opponents’ spaces, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey, but remains a creature with a 10-foot space. Swarms never make attacks of opportunity, but they can provoke attacks of opportunity.
Unlike other creatures with a 10-foot space, a swarm is shapeable. It can occupy any four contiguous squares, and it can squeeze through any space large enough to contain one of its component creatures.
Vulnerabilities Of Swarms
Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities, as follows:
A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit.
A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.
A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks.
Only rat swarms even take damage from weapons, and then only 1/2. http://d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm
Shard O'Glase
First Post
by the rules I'd say it didn't help at all.
I ran a game wheere things had a more impossible action high fantasy feel to it, and I allowed whirlwind atack to obliterate swarms. Giving the swordsman a over the top almost manga level fighting skill at least a feel like he did.
I ran a game wheere things had a more impossible action high fantasy feel to it, and I allowed whirlwind atack to obliterate swarms. Giving the swordsman a over the top almost manga level fighting skill at least a feel like he did.
frankthedm
First Post
Just crack open your copy of the DMG2, I ain't lime-quoting it since it is not OGC.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
frankthedm said:
You know you're still allowed to give the gist, right?
Anyway - my take would be to let whirlwind attack do regular damage. That's not even slightly backed up by the rules (unless you think that the swarm "immune to weapon damage" is negated by the "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.")
Personally, I think the rules for swarms are pretty vague, and they need to be cleaned up (putting the same rules in the MM entry for swarms AND the entry for the swarm subtype would be a good start).
I agree with this as being the RAW interpretation.frankthedm said:
I don't agree with this statement. The "immune to weapon damage" aspect (for most swarms) seems to be about negating physical attacks period, combat feats therefore getting rendered useless seems to be just a byproduct ...frankthedm said:
Personally, I'd let a player with Whirlwind attack get one attack for each square occupied by the swarm that's within reach. I think that remains in the spirit of the feat; a character with Whirlwind Attack should be able to deal with the scenario of being completely surrounded by a Swarm better (provided their attacks can actually hurt the swarm) than a character without that feat.
I know nothing about the mob rules though, so I won't comment on that scenario ...
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