Whirlwind Attack and Swarms

[Shard O'Glase]

I don't have either dmg2 or mm3 so I haven't seen mob rules, but isn't the entire purpose of great cleave and whirlwind attack the special ability to wack through hordes of schmucks at an accelerated rate??

Mob rules sound like a world of dumb to me. IRL sure mobs work we dont have levels and fighting two people at once is a hassle. If multiple people try to tackle you, you will be overborne. But IRL I can't kill everyone within 10' of me with a spiked chain in a couple seconds. Even if there are 300 ramapging peasants charging you, how many can actually engage you at once, are they phazing through each other so that more can takkle you at the same time. Even if they are pressed in on top of each other so multiple people are in the same square, only so many people can fit in a 5' square, and even when they can not all of them can try to tackle the same guy. Do bodies melt into the gorund like a video game so that the mob can move on through tem like they aren't there. There are way to many flaws with this concept for a D&D game to even list.

If this is an eample of the rules in DMG2 I'm glad I didn't pick it up.

 

[Cabral]

Going to have to disagree with you. You absolutely could not defeat a mob (RL) of peasants attacking you with a chain ... you'd hurt/maim/kill many of them, but you can only do so much as the chain's momentum is slowed by the bodies it hits. You absolutely would get overwhelmed, wearing in full plate or a maid's apron, by the mob unless you had a VERY significant advantage.

The mob rules in the DMG2 are pretty good. ... the business rules on the other hand ... erk.

 

[Endur]

I think the problem is that whirlwind and great cleave are all about killing hoards of creatures. However, if you get comfortable with the mob rules you start using them more...so even when your fighting hoards of creature your still not getting to use your cool feats.

Now I agree with Frank, by RAW you can't. However, I personally think that's bogus and it should be house ruled.

I let Whirlwind, Fireball, Air Elemental Whirlwinds, and other AOE attacks have great effect against Swarms. It makes sense that these attacks would be highly effective against a swarm.

That doens't mean that the attack will completely obliterate a swarm ... you can imagine there being so many creeping crawlies that the ones in the rear of the swarm have total cover against the fireball because of the ones in the front of the swarm.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Going to have to disagree with you. You absolutely could not defeat a mob (RL) of peasants attacking you with a chain ...

What part of "This guy can kill every peasant standing within 10 feet of him in 6 seconds" makes you think that RL applies even slightly?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

What part of "This guy can kill every peasant standing within 10 feet of him in 6 seconds" makes you think that RL applies even slightly?

well I guess I wasn't clear enough for him, I do suck at writing. To sum up my thoughts.

1: yes IRL I see the power of the mob, a person no matte rhow skilled can and liekly will be overwhelmed by a mob.
2: D&D isn't real life, characters routinely do the fantastic well beyond what's possible in real life by the rules.
3: D&D IMO sin't even attempting to model reality.
4: D&D's reality includes the concept of an individual whacking everone within 10' of you with feats such as great cleave and whirlwind attack.
5: assuming you accept the D&D reality of great cleave and whirlwind attack the premise of a mob being a threat to people with these feats falls apart for its reality.

 

[Cabral]

Yes, but if you want a kobold encounter that challenges mid-high level PCs, you have to:
1: Throw templates on the kobolds
2: Advance them as classes
3: Throw hordes at the PCs
4: some combination of the above
(You can subsitute any low level iconic monster for kobolds)

If you choose option 1 often, it dilutes the specialness of the templates ... "We're facing a Fiendish [what], today?" It works better if they are reserved for story reasons ... like adventuring in the Abyss or near Portal to the Abyss.

If you choose option 2 often, it becomes boring ... the 15th level kobold monk should be a surprise, not "You see a lone kobold" "Crap! It's got class levels"

Option 3 is workable, but after a point the hordes become unwieldy. It takes 4 Kobolds to be a CR 1 encounter. a CR 8 encounter means 10-12 Kobolds. At this point combat is going to be unwieldy and the mass of kobolds probably won't be challenging enough to merit the XP of a CR 8 encounter .... unless you use Mobs (and groups of Mobs).

Option 4 is of course always Welcome

An Orc Warlord (Orc Fighter 12) commanding an "army" of 4 Orc Mobs would be a CR 14 ... and quite an interesting encounter too.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

that would be an interesting encounter if it didn't have the sucky mob rules. Oh yippee normally I could use the feats I bought for this specific occurance, but now I can't because the mystical the DM wants a interesting encounter rule is in effect.

 

[Cabral]

That's okay, It's balanced out by the feats you can use that don't make sense. ... for example, Stand Still can prevent a mob from attacking you (a mob has reach 0, every time it tries to enter your space, you give up your AoO damage to prevent its movement.)

Just like normal combat, the mob rules trade exacting realism for simplicity and speed of play.

In addition, if you're using multiple mobs, you can use the feats on different mobs. Or you can house rule/DM's call it.

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