[White Wolf] Demon: the Fallen

[Arcane Runes Press]

Yee-hah.

My favorite part of the above was when broad sweeping generalizations were made. That part rules.

Oh, and that part where they cleverly parodied the naming conventions, the way has been done a thousand other times? Sheer genius.

That's the funniest thing I've read on a messageboard in days.

Thumbs up.

Patrick Y.

 

[Wil]

The World of Darkness is becoming ever increasingly like D&D: you can't allow everything to exist at once, otherwise you end up with an inconsistent world.

If you already managed to plug Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, and Changeling together (a feat in itself), adding sorcerers, mummies, hunters and demons will torn everything apart. And things only get even worse if you want to follow the rumors that Exalted is the prehistory of the WoD...

I'll wait to see and hear more about Demon, but I'm personnally not much interested in it. It don't seems too much compatible with the cosmology found in Werewolf, Mage and Changeling.

That's because it's not. None of the cosmogonies are really compatible with each other fully. In Vampire, the Vampires aren't sure there's a god that cursed Caine. In Werewolf, the whole deal with the Weaver and the Wyrm and Luna doesn't even really match up with what the Vampires believe. Changeling has little in common with either one (same as Exalted). Mage totally upends all of them. If you're going to run Werewolves in Vampire, then the Werewolves need more of Vampire's cosmology than Werewolf's. Same if you reverse the roles.

 

[Oubliette]

...but my next campaign is running strongly into being a story about how God was actually killed....and how the celestials and fiends have been coping with mortality, and living amonst humans....

If the urge grabs you, I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on this campaign idea (I am playing with something similar for a mini campaign).

 

[Wayside]

Let me start by saying that I think the name of this particular WoD game was a poor choice, and while I don't know and can't say what factors went into that decision, I'd be disappointed - but not surprised - if shock value was one of them.

That said: give this game a chance.

This isn't about playing beings of pure evil. It's about playing beings who may be pure evil, but may just as well have fallen from grace because they refuse to play by the rules. Remember what the road to hell is paved with? That sort of thing can certainly come into play here.

Knowing absolutely nothing about the game (yet! I never knew they were making it until I saw this thread, but I'll sure check it out now), the name is somewhat ambiguous. Demon and Fallen (presumably Fallen Angel) are certainly not synonymous, so if the game is concerned with that whole story, I'll probably be disappointed. A fallen demon, on the other hand, could be evil turned good, which might also be interesting.

Hmm, okay I just saw SSS-Druid's post, and the game sounds sort of interesting. There is an alternate interpretation of Satan's decision to rebel that is similar: when god commands the angels to love man as they love god they refuse, loving god above all else, and they don't so much rebel as they are banished for their inability to love anything else but god. It isn't a far stretch from this for someone now to say something like "being banished from the presence of the only thing they are capable of loving twists and perverts them into dark beings, most evil, some yet retaining their good essences."

I'll definitely have to read the book to get an idea of how cheesey the storyline *feels* to me--from that blurb it could definitely go either way. If anybody here has at least read all the WW books maybe you can help me out: I'm not a fan of Vampire as a game, though a few elements of its plot are interesting. I like Mummy 1st Edition more than Mummy: The Ressurection, my opinion of Werewolf is comparable to that of Vampire, Wraith has a lot of good points though I think it is overly mechanical, and I suppose I think Hunter is the best of the WoD. Oh, and I'm *not* religious so that wouldn't affect my judgement of Demon either way.

That is an interesting appropriation of "Elohim" though.. although most WW games seem to do that, repeatedly. I guess they expect us to not know all those words already

 

[Oubliette]

Not to hijack but,


Wayside, I really enjoy your quote. Is it by someone in particular?

 

[Wayside]

Oubliette,

Yes, it is from one of Nietzsche's notebooks. After he died his sister collected them and published them as a book, The Will to Power, widely misinterpreted then and for a long time after as his crowning systematic achievement. Really though, it's just a collection of pointed thoughts on specific subjects, so even if you aren't well versed in western philosophy it is a good read. The section on the will to power as art is about 40 pages; much of the rest of the book is very much existentialist, concerned with nihilism and revaluating morals and methods, things like that. Nietzsche, along with Plato, really is the most literary of philosophers.

I don't necessarily agree with the quote myself, though: metaphysics and the philosophies of emotion and language have come a long way since Nietzsche was writing. Still, it's enough to quiet the pretentious people you're likely to encounter at poetry readings or galleries.. quoting Nietzsche is almost like quoting Freud (only N. still has some semblance of authority)--their names are widely known though it seems very few have actually read them.

"What is well-known is not necessarily known merely because it is well known." -- Hegel

I've kind of run on here, havn't I? eep

 

[Oubliette]

*Smacks forehead*


Would you believe that not only have I read The Will to Power and didn't recognize the quote, but I have a degre in Philosophy and didn't recognize the quote. I thought it was alarmingly familiar. It's in there with the whole Apollonian/Dyonisian impulses of the artist bit, isn't it?.....groan.....it didn't even take a whole year out of university for my brain to turn to mush.....

Oh well.....

At least I'll find Everybody Loves Raymond funny now.....

And actually, I have a rather soft spot for Freud, once you actually read his essays, you realize what he's saying and what he is mythologised as are two radically different things.

Ahem, back on subject:

On the subject of Demon: the Fallen, this is not particularily new ground, and seems a bit, well, obvious conpared to the originality of the other WOD books.

I've never liked playing WOD much (if only because I've never found a group that played that I was fond of), but I was always impressed by the originality and compitment to tone and theme that the books generally had (admittedly, I'm not that familliar with many of them, especially the supplemental stuff).

This one just seems, well, a little "on the nose", there's no twist, just....angst. And frankly, if I want angst, I'll play Vampire.

But who knows, it might turn out to be interesting.

 

[Madfox]

My impression from the game, and I have not read it fully yet, is that it mixes badly with the other dark world games. I also got the impression that the players will NOT be playing irredemable evil. It appears that when the angels where banished they were in a hell which slowly twisted them into become even more evil. Then they are janked back into the world, but they have to live in the body of a mortal. Suddenly they are confronted with the emotions and memories of that mortal. The fallen angel would not remain untouched by this flood of emotions of a mortal being. If that mortal was at its heart a good person, the fallen angel more then likely would become a fallen demon. The intro story shows this greatly. At first the demon feels the need to destroy, but then he starts realizing he still cares about humanity, because his mortal body truly loved somebody he had once again learned to love. Of course, many of the demons that returned where not lucky enough to get back into a good person or they were so lost that even human emotions and memories could not jank them back into sanity.

As for how the game treats real life Christianity. The whole story of the fallen angels is actually told by one of those fallen demons. I am sure the authors chose to do that on purpose. The fallen demon is telling the story to a Christian priest who critizise the story highlighting the fact that what the fallen demon tells is from their point of view, nothing more, nothing less.

Of course, to explain inconsistencies with other Darkworld books the book also discusses something about multiple layers to the world. I found that a bit too complicated for my taste. It just says that all supernaturals are right, since in the past one object/creature could be multiple things at the same time :/

 

[Graf]

That's because it's not. None of the cosmogonies are really compatible with each other fully. In Vampire, the Vampires aren't sure there's a god that cursed Caine. In Werewolf, the whole deal with the Weaver and the Wyrm and Luna doesn't even really match up with what the Vampires believe. Changeling has little in common with either one (same as Exalted). Mage totally upends all of them. If you're going to run Werewolves in Vampire, then the Werewolves need more of Vampire's cosmology than Werewolf's. Same if you reverse the roles.

Do they?
My cosmology doesn't match that of more than a few of my friends. A buddhist and a devout Catholic can have some very interesting conversations but they're unlikely to -match- up at the end. Heck, most people I know can't match up their opinions about something concrete like "what's the best way to deal with people on welfare". You want people to agree about, effectively, god, the universe and everything else? (and have it expressed simply in a roleplaying book?)
I understand (I think) the desire for 'cleaness', but WW's way to go is pretty defensible IMHO.

PS In Nomine is a great game. It has its flaws but, like Over the Edge, I think it really stakes out its turf and does a brilliant job of making a cool, immersive, weird and thought provoking world.

 

[Gez]

Do they?
My cosmology doesn't match that of more than a few of my friends. A buddhist and a devout Catholic can have some very interesting conversations but they're unlikely to -match- up at the end.

The problem is not posed in these terms. I would rather compare the WoD's situation to an alternate D&D where each class (cleric, wizard, sorcerer, psion...) would use a different-and-similar-yet-wholly-incompatible Manual of the Planes.

Real world cosmologies are of no real interest. The world is as it is, and cosmologies just try to explain how it came up to be what it is.

But in a magical world like the WoD, cosmologies are not created by mortal minds to schematize the world, they are supposed to be the actual recipe and map of the world.

What I mean is that a real-world christian can't go to hell or to the paradise, and come back to tell us that these places indeed exist, and how they look like, etc. Whereas in the WoD, some people can; and have.