[White Wolf] Demon: the Fallen

[Barastrondo]

The problem is not posed in these terms. I would rather compare the WoD's situation to an alternate D&D where each class (cleric, wizard, sorcerer, psion...) would use a different-and-similar-yet-wholly-incompatible Manual of the Planes.

Personally, I'd rather you didn't, because it's kind of misleading.

If D&D were not in fact one single game, but were in fact a series of self-contained separate games (Fighters & Fighting, Wizards & Witches, Bards & Balalaikas or whatever), each one with its own line of supplements describing things differently (for example, Wizards & Witches, Sorcerors and Spells, Clerics & Cloisters, Bards & Balalaikas and Druids & Dirty Hippies all having separate takes on what magic is and how it works) — then the comparison would be dead-on.

However, D&D isn't designed along those lines. An all-rogue "thieves' guild" campaign is a departure from the expected norm, and you just couldn't run an all-rogue group through most of the published adventures out there without encountering serious problems (especially when the undead start rolling out).

Compare to the World of Darkness — where you don't have to buy any other books than a core rulebook to start playing, and even when the supplement itch hits you, you still will never need to pick up another game line. If you and your friends are major vampire fans, there's no reason that you have to kludge werewolves or fae or mummies into your game if you're all more interested in vampires. And in fact, the game books are written from the perspective that you aren't going to be doing major crossover, simply because it's kind of injurious to the overall mood of the game if you do so willy-nilly. (Crossover can be good, but it has to be carefully thought out; this is true of any genre, actually. Marvel/DC crossovers have to be something more than "so, um... Spider-Man and Batman fight.")

Converting the separate games of the WoD into one "generic" game with the D&D standard goal of trying to complete as diverse a party as possible is just as much work as trying to convert the Adventure Path series to work as well for an all-bard party as it does for a mixed group. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing; but as I stated earlier, I prefer thematic focus to "anything's possible." It's why I started playing Vampire over Nightlife.

 

[Tiama'at]

Do you think that saying "Ok, in my Vampire campaign, mages, werewolves and whatnot exist but are extremely reduced in number when compared to vampires, they can only be NPCs, and they keep hidden from vampires just as much as vampires keep hidden from mortals" would suffice to hold the world consistant?

It's kept my WoD game going for 5 campaigns over 7 years of real time.

- Ma'at

 

[Zappo]

If D&D were not in fact one single game, but were in fact a series of self-contained separate games (Fighters & Fighting, Wizards & Witches, Bards & Balalaikas or whatever), each one with its own line of supplements describing things differently (for example, Wizards & Witches, Sorcerors and Spells, Clerics & Cloisters, Bards & Balalaikas and Druids & Dirty Hippies all having separate takes on what magic is and how it works) — then the comparison would be dead-on.

Gaah! I've just had a flash of a big series of books titled "Fighter: the Hacking", "Cleric: the Praying", "Barbarian: the Raging", "Ranger: the Shaf..." uh well, you get the idea.

 

[Skade]

The problem is not posed in these terms. I would rather compare the WoD's situation to an alternate D&D where each class (cleric, wizard, sorcerer, psion...) would use a different-and-similar-yet-wholly-incompatible Manual of the Planes.

Real world cosmologies are of no real interest. The world is as it is, and cosmologies just try to explain how it came up to be what it is.

But in a magical world like the WoD, cosmologies are not created by mortal minds to schematize the world, they are supposed to be the actual recipe and map of the world.

What I mean is that a real-world christian can't go to hell or to the paradise, and come back to tell us that these places indeed exist, and how they look like, etc. Whereas in the WoD, some people can; and have.

 

[Skade]

The problem is not posed in these terms. I would rather compare the WoD's situation to an alternate D&D where each class (cleric, wizard, sorcerer, psion...) would use a different-and-similar-yet-wholly-incompatible Manual of the Planes.

First off, it would be a mistake to consider werewolves, vampires, et al, to be classes. Werewolves are an entirely different species. Vampires drastically altered humans. Changelings creatures beyond mortal ken forced into little balls of flesh. Wariths and Mages are still human at the core, at least at first, but are hardly mere classes. Even from a mechanics point of view they are more complex than that. Secondly, it is not a deterministic universe. Imagine that something like the Umbra, a shadowly spirit realm that mirrors our own, is not one Umbra- but is instead a reflection of what we belive it to be. That is even untrue. It appears as we can accept it to appear, our mind creating for us the imagery we can accept.

Real world cosmologies are of no real interest. The world is as it is, and cosmologies just try to explain how it came up to be what it is.

Real world cosmologies are quite relevent, since the World of Darkness is a fictional version of our world. It is over the top Resident-Evil-Meets freddy Krueger horror sometimes with more movie cliches than anyone can keep up with, but it is our world. There are buddhists, and catholics, and agnostics all over the world of darkness and those real cosmologies affect the World of Darkness in very real ways. A whole Tradition of Mages, the Celestial Chorus, brings together these disparate religious beliefs and works them into a whole.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Real world cosmologies are of no real interest. The world is as it is, and cosmologies just try to explain how it came up to be what it is.

But in a magical world like the WoD, cosmologies are not created by mortal minds to schematize the world, they are supposed to be the actual recipe and map of the world.

Sez who? I always took the WoD cosmology to be story-based and therefore character-based, i.e. from a certain Character's perspective. That's why the Garou believe themselves to be right and the Black Spiral Dancers believe themselves to be right--gasp!--all at the same time!

All those cosmologies that you're seeking to find the "truth" of are presented as legends, myths, and half-remembered stories in the WoD books. The whole premise of Mage is that belief determines reality. It's not just the premise of the magic system--the idea is that Sleepers control reality. How can you decide what "is" and what "isn't" in such a setting?

What I mean is that a real-world christian can't go to hell or to the paradise, and come back to tell us that these places indeed exist, and how they look like, etc.

Try telling that to Dante.

Whereas in the WoD, some people can; and have.

And what they told was the way they perceived it.

Me: Is Eris true?
Mal-2: Everything is true.
Me: Even false things?
Mal-2: Yes, even false things are true.
Me: But...how can that be?
Mal-2: Don't ask me, man--I didn't do it!

I hope they never explain away the mysteries of the WoD. To do so would, IMO, strip the setting of a good portion of its appeal.

In other words, I want even false things to be true.