Who is at fault?

[carnanick]

The other day my players were very very very angry at me...And as DM I almost killed them(not in game, I mean for real). Anyhow I'm curious as to what would be your approach to this situation.
-plot-
Party of lv. 7 characters are attacking a temple dojo run by Monks of the Long Death.
There are two guards. The party's mage type, goes invisible, and blasts the guards with a fireball, the others open fire with missle weapons. One guard survives the fire ball (monk-evasion) and attacks the party's monk. The monk is killed, but he raised the alarm, even taking an entire round to do so.
-The party is fireballed by a invisible yun-ti sorceror who is on top of the temple, reacting to the alarm. The temple Lao-Shi type raises the wall of force on the temple door , and asks the party to state the purpose of their incursion. The party opens missile fire, deflected by wall of force. The mage attacks the sorceror with scorching ray. The party has been comfortable with their distence from said temple. Thus they were making their attacks with no range modifier. Thus they were only 30 ft. away.
-The party decides to speak with the Temple Leader. SHe challenges their mage to a wizards duel with her Yun-Ti, and asks the Barabarian to single combat. Party refuses saying it is UNFAIR because if they lose either combat she will have the party killed.
-Ok sorry for the long story: now the Mage says I back up out of fire ball range and guesture for the party to do like wise. I say you mean "formation" he says Yeah. I seperate all party members by 40 ft. Some how I let him get away with this.
-Ok then he says we run away. I say, "you will all die".
He says why? we are all out of fire ball range.
I say You can't back up 400 feet without being noticed by two alert characters. You'd be fire balled while running.
He says I said we got out of fire ball range.
I replied he's a level 8 sorceror. His fire ball is over 600' range.
Party mage replies, I forgot. I want the party to be far away. You lied to us,
I say if the party makes missle fire with no negative modifiers I assume you are within ranger to use those weapons. THe range on an axe is 30 ft. I said the monk charged you from 40 ft. You were all ok with that.
-Suffice It to say, we all ended up fighting, and I felt it was outrageous behavior on the part of the party. Not to mention Fire ball is a level dependent range spell anyway. So in addition to meta-gaming, they were screaming at me for not telling them how the rules worked?
-Was I wrong? I mean I did lose my cool and yell back, but really? I game under the impression that the party is responsible for their actions not me.

 

[takasi]

Sounds like you need a battlemat.

 

[carnanick]

I had one. They were all 30 ft. from the temple.

 

[shilsen]

Moral of the story: Use miniatures and a battlemat. That prevents such arguments.

From the sounds of your story, the players were at fault. The whole "we back out of fireball range unmolested and run like hell" is silly. Of course, we're getting only your version of the story. Theirs would very likely be different.

While I agree with you that the party is responsible for their actions, I don't agree that you're not at all responsible. Remember that their actions are based on the information you give them, so you're significantly responsible too.

What I would have done is made sure they knew exactly what they were doing. For example, your

now the Mage says I back up out of fire ball range and guesture for the party to do like wise. I say you mean "formation" he says Yeah. I seperate all party members by 40 ft. Some how I let him get away with this.

sounds like you were quite vague and didn't check what he meant. Backing up out of fireball range means something very different to spreading out so as not to be caught within the spread of a fireball. This was the point where you should have explained that they couldn't back up that far without being fireballed, and the problem would have had less likelihood of occurring.

Also, shouting back at people who are shouting at you is the worst way to resolve the situation. Next time, try waiting them out and simply look at them silently till they shut up. It's harder to do, but more likely to defuse a situation.

In short: It sounds like your players were mostly at fault. You made it worse and could possibly have prevented the problem. Both sides should work on communication.

 

[Crothian]

Sounds like you are both bad at communicating. Learn to commiunicate better and make more use of the battlemat you say you have.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I think you and your players had unrealistic expectations concerning the game, how it was to go, and how hard a DM you were. And you are falling prey to emotion, which will cripple your ability to DM in the future.

I advise strongly that you sit down with your players, and ask them what manner of game they want.
Tell your players what kind of DM you like to be, and what kind of game you expect to run. Give them your gaming philosophy.
Then, sit with your friends (I stress: your friends) the players (and they should take this hint too: they sit down with their friend, YOU) and discuss whether things can be worked out to be fun.
If yes, then great.
If no, then let another one of them take up the DMing job. And ... let them see how much of an onerous, colossal burden DMing is.

Lose the anger, on all sides. Or lose the group, and maybe friends too. Anger is counterproductive. Sorry to sound pitiless, but I mean this. I've seen anger fester and boil and wreck entire groups, repeatedly.
Lose the anger. Right now. That goes for everyone. Drop it. Now.

Since I was asked ...

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[Herobizkit]

"Realistically", that is, from an in-game p.o.v., the party doesn't know what the range of a fireball would be because they don't know the caster level of the opposing wizard. You told them, sure, but their chatacters wouldn't know; their wizard would have to best-guess anyway and, well, he'd've been wrong.

 

[LostSoul]

Was there a reason your group didn't decide to roll initiative?

It seems to me that you had entered a "combat" state with two opposing goals - get out of fireball range vs. burn them all with a fireball. Once this was apparent, the normal combat rules could have been used to determine what happens: do the PCs win init and have the movement to get out of range?

However, on thing jumps out at me:

-Ok sorry for the long story: now the Mage says I back up out of fire ball range and guesture for the party to do like wise. I say you mean "formation" he says Yeah. I seperate all party members by 40 ft. Some how I let him get away with this.

(Emphasis mine.)

When you say, "I let him get away with this", did you mean that you allowed the PCs to get out of fireball range? (If not, what did you mean?)

 

[Chimera]

I agree on the anger thing, having just ended a game over it. Well, a lot of other issues too, but when both players and GM all start to get hostile and angry, it's pretty much over.

Part of the problem is: D&D is essentially rigged. You play a lot of other games, you expect to be either extremely careful, or extremely dead. D&D is one of the few games where people actually go out to find trouble and then expect that the GM won't throw anything at them that they can't handle.

Sometimes this breeds an attitude in players that says "If something works to our advantage, great. The minute that it doesn't, then it's the GM's fault for (fill in the blanks)."

That sounds like this situation. If they saw it on the battlemat and didn't say a word, then they really have no basis for complaint. Do they move their own minis? If so, then I never have any sympathy for incorrect movement, other than by serious misunderstanding based on the GM saying something vague or incorrect and not just the player screwing it up in their own head.

 

[the Jester]

I had one. They were all 30 ft. from the temple.

Presto! There's your answer!

In my campaign, if you're on the Battlemat, you are where your mini is. If you don't like it, on your turn, move. If your players throw a fit because they can't all move 600' in one round- well, either they're used to being soft-pedalled by their dms (maybe you, maybe others), or else they have no conception of how far 600' is.

I suggest this: point at the Battlemat (arranged like they were when they began their attack). Then get a tape measure and spool out 120 squares (which is 120", or ten goddamn feet) and say, "Okay, so this is how far you would have to have run without alerting your enemies, who were watching you and already in combat with your, that you were trying to flee."

If that doesn't get through to them, I'm honestly not sure what else to try.

HOWEVER, some of the madness might be your fault. I don't know, I wasn't there. Question: Did they put themselves on the mat, or did you put them on it? If you put them on it, you were acting under certain assumptions that, frankly, you shouldn't have acted under. Unless they approved your placement, I'd say that they have some room to complain. In the future, make them put themselves on the map, and make sure they understand that their mini marks their location and that they move only on their turn.

IME, making the party position themselves lets them dig the hole. You just have to throw dirt on top.

But in all fairness, if the party scatters, the sorcerer ain't gonna be able to get 'em all with a single fireball. It's only a 20' radius, after all.