Why all the hate for Turn Undead?

[triqui]

I've never had a problem with all clerics being able to turn undead. To me its a function of faith and what cleric wouldn't have that?

Certain Clerics don't give a crap about undead, or, embrace them.

I'd go as far as to say *most* clerics don't give a crap about undead.

Using default 3rd edition pantheon as an example:



Gods that don't give a crap about undead

Boccob, god of magic. Necromancy is a form of magic too.

Corellon Larethian, god of elves, magic, music, and arts.

Garl Glittergold, god of gnomes, humor, and gemcutting.

Gruumsh, god of orcs.

Moradin, god of dwarves.

Nerull, god of death, darkness, murder and the underworld.

Yondalla, goddess of halflings.

Ehlonna, goddess of forests, woodlands, flora & fauna, and fertility

Erythnul, god of hate, envy, malice, panic, ugliness, and slaughter.

Fharlanghn, god of horizons, distance, travel, and roads.

Hextor, god of war, discord, massacres, conflict, fitness, and tyranny.

Kord, god of athletics, sports, brawling, strength, and courage.

Obad-Hai, god of nature, freedom, hunting, and beasts.

Olidammara, god of music, revels, wine, rogues, humor, and tricks

Vecna, god of destructive and evil secrets.




Gods that might give a crap about undead.

Pelor, god of sun, light, strength and healing. More humans worship Pelor than any other deity.

Saint Cuthbert, god of common sense, wisdom, zeal, honesty, truth, and discipline.

Wee Jas, goddess of magic, death, vanity, and law

Heironeous, god of chivalry, justice, honor, war, daring, and valor.

 

[Shadeydm]

I'd go as far as to say *most* clerics don't give a crap about undead.

Using default 3rd edition pantheon as an example:



Gods that don't give a crap about undead

Boccob, god of magic. Necromancy is a form of magic too.

Corellon Larethian, god of elves, magic, music, and arts.

Garl Glittergold, god of gnomes, humor, and gemcutting.

Gruumsh, god of orcs.

Moradin, god of dwarves.

Nerull, god of death, darkness, murder and the underworld.

Yondalla, goddess of halflings.

Ehlonna, goddess of forests, woodlands, flora & fauna, and fertility

Erythnul, god of hate, envy, malice, panic, ugliness, and slaughter.

Fharlanghn, god of horizons, distance, travel, and roads.

Hextor, god of war, discord, massacres, conflict, fitness, and tyranny.

Kord, god of athletics, sports, brawling, strength, and courage.

Obad-Hai, god of nature, freedom, hunting, and beasts.

Olidammara, god of music, revels, wine, rogues, humor, and tricks

Vecna, god of destructive and evil secrets.




Gods that might give a crap about undead.

Pelor, god of sun, light, strength and healing. More humans worship Pelor than any other deity.

Saint Cuthbert, god of common sense, wisdom, zeal, honesty, truth, and discipline.

Wee Jas, goddess of magic, death, vanity, and law

Heironeous, god of chivalry, justice, honor, war, daring, and valor.

I guess my position on this is that if you are a cleric the power of your faith is a real and tangible thing. Being able to turn the strength of your faith powered by sheer force of will etc into a tangible effect doesn't bother me. If you don't want them all to have it no biggie but in most cases I don't think you have to work that hard to make a case for it. If you want to take the time to break it down by god thats cool but if i want my cleric of Nerull to be able to turn undead by tapping into the nasty wellspring of deathlyness that is Nerull to do so I don't see it as a big deal.

 

[triqui]

I guess my position on this is that if you are a cleric the power of your faith is a real and tangible thing. Being able to turn the strength of your faith powered by sheer force of will etc into a tangible effect doesn't bother me. If you don't want them all to have it no biggie but in most cases I don't think you have to work that hard to make a case for it. If you want to take the time to break it down by god thats cool but if i want my cleric of Nerull to be able to turn undead by tapping into the nasty wellspring of deathlyness that is Nerull to do so I don't see it as a big deal.

I also find plausible that in a fantasy game, a cleric can turn the power of his faith in a real and tangible thing. It just make no sense than the faith of a cleric from the god of Fire is able to turn undeads instead of, say, water elementals, or the faith of a god of Gnomes turn away ghosts, instead of wolverines or whatever is the thing that eat gnomes more frequently.

Turn Undead is something that carries with the game since the ages where "cleric" was a default assumption of "holy men" that looked like "christian templars". In such, it made sense they could turn away "evil", like undeads (although they should turn away demons and devils too). That was right in OD&D, and in AD&D, where there was a difference between the generic "cleric" and the specialty "priest" (which was the one serving a certain god).

In 3e and beyond, "clerics" no longer exist as they were originally. Now they all have a god, and they worship him. In thus enviroment, faith means something different to "clone of Judeo-Christian faith". A cleric of "travels, roads and merchants" couldn't give less of a crap about vampires. They care about bandits, though.

 

[Shadeydm]

I also find plausible that in a fantasy game, a cleric can turn the power of his faith in a real and tangible thing. It just make no sense than the faith of a cleric from the god of Fire is able to turn undeads instead of, say, water elementals, or the faith of a god of Gnomes turn away ghosts, instead of wolverines or whatever is the thing that eat gnomes more frequently.

Turn Undead is something that carries with the game since the ages where "cleric" was a default assumption of "holy men" that looked like "christian templars". In such, it made sense they could turn away "evil", like undeads (although they should turn away demons and devils too). That was right in OD&D, and in AD&D, where there was a difference between the generic "cleric" and the specialty "priest" (which was the one serving a certain god).

In 3e and beyond, "clerics" no longer exist as they were originally. Now they all have a god, and they worship him. In thus enviroment, faith means something different to "clone of Judeo-Christian faith". A cleric of "travels, roads and merchants" couldn't give less of a crap about vampires. They care about bandits, though.

A cleric might just be appealing to their god for protection from the abomination that is a vampire. I don't believe divine intervention/aid/protection is unique to judeo-christian beliefs.

 

[triqui]

A cleric might just be appealing to their god for protection from the abomination that is a vampire. I don't believe divine intervention/aid/protection is unique to judeo-christian beliefs.

Fine. Why does not the cleric then appeal to their god for protection from the abomination that is a dragon? Or a Beholder? Or a Basilisk, or a Mind Flayer, or a Rakhshasha? Why not ask for protection from the abomination than a Hecatoncheires (who actually has the Abomination template)? Why would Moradin be more worried about his followers being attacked by a zombie than he is about them being attacked by orcs, who are actually his long-held enemies?

Divine intervention/aid/protection isn't unique to judeo-christian beliefs. But in Greece, you wouldn't ask Poseidon to protect you from an undead skeleton, you wouldn't ask Hades to protect you from a Sea Monster or for the same reasons you wouldn't ask Dionisios to protect you from a storm. Turn Undead doesn't make sense in a polytheist world with a pantheon with portfolios. The god of Storms should protect you from lightning, not from zombies.

 

[Shadeydm]

Fine. Why does not the cleric then appeal to their god for protection from the abomination that is a dragon? Or a Beholder? Or a Basilisk, or a Mind Flayer, or a Rakhshasha? Why not ask for protection from the abomination than a Hecatoncheires (who actually has the Abomination template)? Why would Moradin be more worried about his followers being attacked by a zombie than he is about them being attacked by orcs, who are actually his long-held enemies?

Divine intervention/aid/protection isn't unique to judeo-christian beliefs. But in Greece, you wouldn't ask Poseidon to protect you from an undead skeleton, you wouldn't ask Hades to protect you from a Sea Monster or for the same reasons you wouldn't ask Dionisios to protect you from a storm. Turn Undead doesn't make sense in a polytheist world with a pantheon with portfolios. The god of Storms should protect you from lightning, not from zombies.

Sure and if you really want to follow that rabbit hole to the bottom you can have a giant highly detailed spell list for each and every god because why would the god of merchants give you the ability to call down a column of flame from the sky? Why would the god of healing let you summon a plague of locusts. How many chapters will this take up in the PHB? Or worse only one spell per level per god to make sure everyone gets something... When does the madness end?

 

[Steely_Dan]

I own and read Monster Mythology, thanks.

 

[triqui]

Sure and if you really want to follow that rabbit hole to the bottom you can have a giant highly detailed spell list for each and every god because why would the god of merchants give you the ability to call down a column of flame from the sky? Why would the god of healing let you summon a plague of locusts. How many chapters will this take up in the PHB? Or worse only one spell per level per god to make sure everyone gets something... When does the madness end?

Well, in 2e the specialty priests had access to "domains" and could only cast spells from that domains. So a priest of war couldn't cast "antiplant shell" and a priest of plants couldn't cast "blade barrier", although both of the could cast "bless". It didn't take more than a couple pages in the PHB and wasn't a "madness", it was quite simple indeed.

Other than that, you don't need to follow the rabbit hole to the bottom. Removing Turn Undead and making it a Domain Spell for those clerics that should have it is good enough. So all clerics can cast "bless", "cure light wounds" and "spiritual weapon", and the cleric of Pelor can cast "turn undead" while the cleric of Kord casts "enlarge person" or whatever.

 

[Shadeydm]

Well, in 2e the specialty priests had access to "domains" and could only cast spells from that domains. So a priest of war couldn't cast "antiwood shell" and a priest of plants couldn't cast "blade barrier", although both of the could cast "bless". It didn't take more than a couple pages in the PHB and wasn't a "madness", it was quite simple indeed.

Other than that, you don't need to follow the rabbit hole to the bottom. Removing Turn Undead and making it a Domain Spell for those clerics that should have it is good enough. So all clerics can cast "bless", "cure light wounds" and "spiritual weapon", and the cleric of Pelor can cast "turn undead" while the cleric of Kord casts "enlarge person" or whatever.

Why does the god of the sun or the moon care about healing?

 

[Steely_Dan]

Why does the god of the sun or the moon care about healing?

Exactly, I would think a god of the sun is all about scorching! *said very camp*